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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was NO CONSENSUS. postdlf (talk) 15:03, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Janos Boros (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL) * Note : This is the second, not the third nomination
Support Not notable. I don't see how this passes either WP:GNG or WP:POLITICIAN. He does not possess an article not even on Romanian Wikipedia Iaaasi (talk) 12:03, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete - a minor local official not covered in any meaningful depth by independent sources. Yes, local newspapers did feature his name from time to time, but only in passing, or in tangential relation to a corruption scandal (tellingly not mentioned by this promotional article). Fails to meet WP:POLITICIAN requirements. - Biruitorul Talk 04:32, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Vice-Mayor? Delete as per Biruitorul. -- P 1 9 9 • TALK 04:22, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, T. Canens (talk) 21:35, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Relisting comment: I originally closed this as delete, but in light of the previous AfD a fuller discussion is probably more appropriate. T. Canens (talk) 21:38, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I found this in the previous discussion, can anyone confirm if it was legitimate?
- "As to the aspect of finding mention in Romanian media, 61 mentions in Evenimentul Zilei, 37 mentions in Adevărul, 41 mentions in Ziua, 200 mentions in Clujeanul - a newspaper from his own city, 128 mentions in hotnews.ro are significant." Hobartimus (talk) 00:07, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Please don't manipulate the information. The correct data are: 4 mentions in Evenimentul Zilei, 8 mentions in Adevărul, 0 mentions in Ziua, 123 mentions in Clujeanul - a newspaper from his own city, 100 mentions in hotnews.ro (Iaaasi (talk) 08:05, 22 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]
- Did you read the above? I said I found it being posted in the previous discussion. Obviously the listed results show the data at the time of the first Afd, which was in 2009. Unless they were manipulated in 2009. Seems a case of selective reading to me. Hobartimus (talk) 17:57, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete What has changed here since the last AfD? Oh, yeah: mudslinging. Here I am, standing by my earlier comment: "I don't see how this passes either WP:GNG or WP:POLITICIAN. The coverage that he got in the press is, as far as I can tell, almost exclusively owed to a local corruption scandal which implicated him (an incident which, tellingly, is not even covered by the article). The news is of marginal interest even locally (in Cluj County, that is), and the text, which is most likely promotional, is horribly written. This is a quick way to make oneself look important, not an encyclopedic topic." Dahn (talk) 16:49, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Dahn, I reviewed the talk page comment that you cite and In my view it was an inappropriate remark. Without a doubt there are some legitimate concerns with this article, such as tone and it's creator's list of contributions making a description of "most likely promotional" accurate. However these problems can sometime be fixed by rewriting by someone else. I think the ideal solution here would be a stub written by someone like Dahn or Biruitorul. Hobartimus (talk) 19:40, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- True perhaps, but that only addresses part of my point, the other being that Boros is merely a vice-mayor of a reasonably large but still provincial town, and that the third-party sources which we could cite on him, the only ones on which we could base the article if it need exist, are either trivial or describing a passing controversy that is an embarrassment for Boros. These would be, if stretched, the only reasons why Boros would make the GNG cut. Dahn (talk) 20:59, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Hobartimus, I appreciate your suggestion, but why would a stub be justified? "Deputy Mayor" (of a provincial city, no less) is not a notable position, per WP:POLITICIAN. And there simply aren't references confirming notability per WP:BIO, the standard there being Boros should have been the subject of multiple published secondary reliable sources. - Biruitorul Talk 22:40, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
STRONG KEEP: @ Hobartimus, Yes this is a case of selective reading.One should look at the references and also the cross references of those articles in those news sites. For example Evenimentul Zilei, 4,340 mentions and cross-mentions, in Adevărul 1,170 mentions and cross-mentions, Ziua.net is now [1] so the search there which is of news = 8,190 mentions and cross-mentions. The exmaples can go on and on.
One thing that also needs to be reckoned is the while [Janos Boros] has quite many citings not favourable to him, the local Hungarian papers have none. The right way to interpret this is that minority politicians stand to get maligned a lot in majority news dailies. Otherwise how is it possible that not only does [Janos Boros] have positive mentions in the minority Hungarian press, but also they are quite significant in number. This is considering only around 2 percent of the whole Romanian population(Mostly elderly Hungrains) form majority of its readers. Now take the example of Szabadsag = 89 mentions and cross-mentions if you search with with his family name second in the search string. If you search how a Hungarian would write and read - family name first the result for the same search is = 366 mentions and cross-mentions, in another local Hungarian paper Kronika = 53 mentions and cross-mentions.
There are many Romanian politicians and public figures who have entries in Wikipedia. Just a few examples of Romanian Politicians who are Vice-Mayors and have entires:
- Camelia Gavril, Vice Mayor of Iasi
- Romeo Olteanu, Vice Mayor of Zarnesti
- Ioan Todiraș, Vice Mayor of a Sector in Bucuresti
- Mircea Dolha, Vice Mayor of Baia Mare etc.
Anyone searching for "viceprimar" [2] on Wikipedia.org will find a whole list of pages/entries of Romanian Politicians who are and were Vicemayors themselves. So why the differential treatment?
Warm regards, Hangakiran (talk) 21:50, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- All those examples are from Romanian Wikipedia. Can you please show me on en.wp an article about the Vice-Mayor of any other city from the world? (Iaaasi (talk) 21:54, 22 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]
- WP:WAX is not a valid argument, particularly if you refer to articles from ro.wiki, which is rife with promotional material.
- My Google searches of Romanian papers actually give 4, 8 and 199 hits (not 4340, 1170 and 8190), but regardless, see WP:GHITS for why that's not really relevant. The totality of those results seem more than trivial in nature. To take the four EVZ results for instance, one tells us that Boros and several colleagues misused city funds; one lists him as losing an election, one mentions he gave an order to fill in a hole, and one again is a candidate list. I'm afraid none of these is particularly useful in writing an article. The Hungarian-language sources appear of a similarly insubstantial nature, though you may correct me on that point.
- In short, you'll want to present reliable, in-depth sources attesting substantive notability, not random bits of news coverage (remember, we are WP:NOTNEWS), if you want this article kept. - Biruitorul Talk 22:40, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: This discussion seems to have been canvassed on the Meta-Wiki talk pages of at least three Hungarian users.[3][4][5] Jafeluv (talk) 11:59, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment The canvasser is User:Hangakiran, the only editor who opposed the deletion. He put also messages on en.wiki asking for help: [6][7][8][9] (so a total of 7 canvassed users) (Iaaasi (talk) 12:27, 23 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]
- Comment@User:Iaaasi When Iaaasi nominated the article for under WP:Afd, no notification was sent to us User:Hangakiran. So the outcome was the article was deleted. Another reason for the intimations was to request Hungarian users who are interested about what happens to pages of their leaders and to avoid the discussion becoming one sided with contributions only from Romanian Wiki users. Hangakiran (talk) 14:49, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Commment You should understand that what you've done (choosing invited users after a clear criteria like Hungarian ethnicity) is WP:Votestacking and it is illegal. You did not send neutral invitations, but requests "for help" in your attempt to prevent the deletion of this article. However this is not a vote (WP:VOTE) where the majority wins, but a "battle" of arguments (Iaaasi (talk) 15:06, 23 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]
- It's a bit of a stretch to call a former vice-mayor of a Romanian city a "leader" of Hungarians anywhere. Also, will you kindly stop viewing everything through the prism of ethnicity? This is not a numbers game between "Hungarian users" and "Romanian Wiki users". It's an attempt to remove an article on a non-notable figure who fails to meet applicable standards (WP:BIO, WP:POLITICIAN, WP:GNG, etc). - Biruitorul Talk 15:10, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Further canvassing alert: User:Hangakiran set up an account on hu.wiki exclusively for canvassing "keep" votes for this article; see here, here, here, here and here. He has now canvassed 12 users on three projects. This is getting out of hand, and really threatens the integrity of the discussion. - Biruitorul Talk 15:10, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- @ Biruitorul, please can you give reference to the page created by me? I don't recall creating a page to exclusively canvass on hu.wiki. Regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hangakiran (talk • contribs) 16:51, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- This is a lie. You know very well what you've done (Iaaasi (talk) 16:56, 23 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]
- @ Iaaasi. Can you elaborate on what is the lie you refer to?
- I am sorry, I owe you excuses, I thought you were saying that the account from hu.wp is not yours (Iaaasi (talk) 17:08, 23 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]
Request for more information: Can someone list the applicable standards under which the politician does not qualify? This nomination makes a blanket statement regarding qualifications with no supporting details; just leaves it up to everyone else to figure it out for themselves with their own interpretation of the criteria. That makes me uncomfortable when we are talking about deleting content. This politician doesn't seem to be one of those "common sense" deletions. There's quite a bit of information in the article. In the first nomination, I had written about what I thought was a meeting of criteria. No one responded. I would like to understand from the nominator what their interpretation is and how they see that the criteria is not being met. Thank you. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 18:47, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Note: User:Sborsody joined this discussion as a result of Hangakiran's canvassing (Iaaasi (talk) 22:03, 24 March 2011 (UTC)) Further note This is allowed under WP:CANVASS as I participated in a previous discussion on the same topic. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 16:45, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment BTW, I'm not really Hungarian, just married to one and have ancestors from that empire who were minorities, as should be clear from my user page. I thought I was solicited for input because I commented on the previous nomination.[10] While I don't agree with the canvassing based on ethnicity, I also don't agree with not taking the good-faith effort of reaching out to the major contributors of the article. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 22:00, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- If I may try to answer your question by looking at WP:POLITICIAN:
- Boros has not held international, national or sub-national office, or been in the national legislature, so he fails point 1.
- As for point 2: well, we know he wasn't mayor. We're told he was on the city council, but we have no source to back this up, and anyway, my reading is that in general, only city councillors of "a major metropolitan city" (of which Romania has but one, Bucharest) tend to be notable. Was he a "major local political figure"? Probably not: power in Cluj-Napoca city government is concentrated in the mayor and to a lesser extent the council, with the unelected vice-mayors serving more of an administrative role.
- Finally, has he "received significant press coverage"? I tend to think he hasn't. Let's look just at the footnotes. I can't read Hungarian, but the two sources in that language seem to make only passing mention of him. Of the ones in Romanian, one is a quote in a news brief, one is a declaration about an obscure corruption scandal, one mentions his opinion on some highway project, one is a quote about housing, one looks at his allegedly corrupt deals, one is a quote about a city contract for a plot of land, one mentions him strictly in passing, one is a dead link, one is a news brief about a lawsuit filed against him by aggrieved tenants in two buildings, one mentions he ordered a hole to be filled, and one is an opinion piece that doesn't mention him. The one source in English is a news article that doesn't mention him. Oh, and almost all of these are in local rather than national newspapers. Can we say no one cares?
- Some of the claims, by the way, tend to be overblown to the point of having nothing to do with the source. Take for instance this passage: "Though during the years of the Boc administration he no longer had to face constant ethnic provocations, his tenure was not fully void of ethnic disputes, either. Being the vice mayor he was tested time and again in his ability to reconcile disputes between the majority Romanian governance and the expectations of the minority Hungarians he represented". The source makes no such claim. "One such conflict was regarding restoration of the statue of Matthias Corvinus. The ex-mayor Gheorghe Funar was the one who started the controversy by changing the label of the statue of Matthias Corvinus from 'Matthias Rex Hungarorum' (Matthias King of Hungarians) to just 'Matthias Rex'." Again, nowhere does the article say this. "Being supported by the liberal Emil Boc, Janos Boros was able to diplomatically reconcile differences between the governments of Hungary and Romania, who together decided to finance the restoration of the historical statue group (of Matthias King) from the centre of Cluj-Napoca." The source (an opinion piece, by the way, which can't be used to support anything) makes absolutely no mention of Boros. So you see, not only is the sourcing trivial, it's been manipulated so as to endow Boros with an exaggerated importance.
- As was brought up earlier, we don't really have articles on deputy mayors. OK, we do for London, as well as having a couple for New York, but one can't really compare Cluj-Napoca to those cities, can one?
- Personally, I've written articles on five ethnic Hungarian politicians from Romania (László Borbély, Attila Cseke, Attila Verestóy, Iuliu Winkler, Péter Eckstein-Kovács), so it's not like the topic doesn't interest me. It's just that I tend to know a notable UDMR politician when I see one, and, for better or worse, Boros just isn't one of them. - Biruitorul Talk 05:26, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Suggest Merge/Weak Delete: Thank you, Biruitorul, for taking the time to write more about the criteria and address the concerns I raised during the first nomination for deletion. I learned from you that vice-mayors are non-elected administrative roles (really?) and that to me somewhat lessens the importance. The "significance" criteria always seem to be a sticking point on these AfDs because everyone has their own ideas of what is significant. What is really telling to me is the total lack of links in Wikipedia to the Janos Boros article.[11] I guess I'm still concerned about a story here regarding events in Cluj-Napoca politics that may be lost by outright deletion of the article. The sources seem to suggest Janos Boros is a supporting character in that story, which indicates to me that it may be possible to preserve the story under other, more appropriate articles such as the article on Gheorghe Funar or Emil Boc. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 06:38, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- During 2004-2008, one of the main developments in Cluj-Napoca politics was the defusing of ethnic tensions built up by Mayor Funar. Indeed, by the end, the latter had managed to alienate pretty much everyone, Romanian and Hungarian alike, with his combative style, so that after a year in office, the technocratic Boc believed his main achievement was to bring about a "climate of normality" in city politics, whereas his populist predecessor had tended to file lawsuits against most decisions of the local council, the county council and the prefecture. No doubt, part of that process was in having a Hungarian for one of his deputies, in removing the Romanian flags one saw on every street corner, etc. If sources make the link, no doubt this can be mentioned at Emil Boc or even History of Cluj-Napoca.
- But based on what I said above about the sources here being manipulated, I would caution against using any of this text in other articles. Let me give another example, if I may. We have this passage: "The issue of the statue has been a barometer to the sensitivity of the multi-ethnic groups cohabiting in Cluj-Napoca. It is wishful to think that this shared restoration brings a final resolution to Cluj-Napoca's ethnic conflicts, though efforts of leaders like Janos Boros and Emil Boc have eased tensions and have been successful in curtailing the nationalists from both Hungarian and Romanian sides to a great extent." The only problem is, it's completely unsourced, and was probably concocted by the author. Once we have an article on the statue (and we should), some of this should definitely be mentioned, but from a reliable source like this one, not the editorializing of a Wikipedia editor. - Biruitorul Talk 13:52, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- just a few comments: I don't see what is the problem with notifying other editors about this AfD. English Wikipedia is too big for us to keep an eye on all Hungary-related articles, especially that there are only a few Hungarian editors here (also, most of us are used to the much smaller Hungarian wikipedia where it's relatively easy to watch all AfD pages). Hangakiran couldn't even be sure that we'll vote for the article to be kept. I think if the majority of the sources regarding a subject's notability are in a certain language, it is necessary to notify users who can understand that language (and I've seen enwiki sysops doing this.
- Also, I don't see how Cluj is not a "major metropolitan city", it is stated that it's the fourth largest in Romania, with a population of about 400,000; seems to be significant even by European standards.
- Boros has over 37,000 google hits in Hungarian, mostly about monument protection, local events, and losing an election. I'm not sure it makes him notable, though. – Alensha talk 21:25, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I suppose everyone will have a different definition of "major metropolitan city", but how about using the list of Largest urban areas of the European Union? (Romania's next six largest cities are some six times smaller, correspondingly less powerful, and widely thought of as "provincial".) By that standard, Romania does indeed have just one, and I tend to think that's about right: members of the General Council of Bucharest maybe (as in, a few of them) are notable figures, but one simply doesn't see members of the Iaşi, Cluj, Timişoara, Constanţa, Craiova or Galaţi city councils exercising any sort of influence or having any kind of renown outside their own cities. Their mayors, yes, but not their city councillors.
- I've never thought of Boros as being a nobody: he had a decent-enough career in politics and no doubt was well-liked by some voters and helped them out, while angering others (like the ones who sued him). But that's true for thousands of local politicians in mid-sized cities around the world, and it shouldn't necessarily follow that he gets a Wikipedia article. WP:POLITICIAN should be applied equally.
- As for Google: well, from what you say, it sounds like Hungarian sources also mainly deal with his involvement in local issues and making the local news. Perhaps some of that has its place at, say, Matthias Corvinus Statue, Cluj-Napoca, but I doubt it rises to a particularly noteworthy standard, though feel free to correct me. By the way, we get lots of hits for (just to take an example) today's UDMR Cluj city councillors (Irsay, Somogyi, Csoma, Molnos and László). Of these, Molnos may be notable primarily as a writer and László is just possibly notable as a politician, but I wouldn't say the same of the first three, or of most of the other 22 members of the council. - Biruitorul Talk 22:13, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - In my opinion the sources points to notability. I see no reason to delete this article right now.--BabbaQ (talk) 16:51, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete While I think this person passes WP:GNG it is a borderline case. As I said I see some issues with the article, which could not be resolved at this time per comments above. I would have no problem with the article being recreated at a later time as a stub by an established editor, should someone change their mind or become interested. However this recreating user writing the stub, should be someone with interests in a few other topics as well, not just this single article. Hobartimus (talk) 17:00, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Janos Boros Has been the President of the State of Cluj of the RMDSZ(UDMR In Romanian) - The Largest Hungarian Party in Romania for 2 Years and Vice-presidentship for 4 Years. Put together he has been the head of RMDSZ's Cluj City party head for nearly 6 years. In addition has been the Vice Mayor of Cluj Napoca for 8 Years. Another important aspect about his Vice-Mayorship is that he was the first Hungarian to enter Cluj-Napoca city governance as Viec Mayor after the fall of communism - a notable event for Hungarians, while Romanians might well predictably find it insignificant. This should qualify him easily under WP:Politician
- He was:
- - From 1993 to 97 Vice-president Cluj County of UDMR
- - From 1997 to 99 President of Cluj County UDMR
- - From 2000 onwards he was the Vice Mayor of Cluj Napoca for 2 successive terms
- References:
- - http://archivum.szabadsag.ro/archivum/1997/7okt-23.htm (under Máshol elképzelhetetlen)
- - http://archivum.szabadsag.ro/archivum/1997/7nov-28.htm (Under Diplomats visit Körösfôn )
- - http://archivum.szabadsag.ro/archivum/1997/7jul-28.htm#E13E4
- These are but a sample of the links that can be found in the Hungarian press about Janos Boros. If one does site :searches as I have in the links in my previous posts, and does get a proper Hungarian Translation, would find news :coverage of significance unlike in the Romanian press( which is an admixture of very little good, some neutral and :bad to a large extent for Janos Boros).
- About Cluj not being of importance and Bucharest being the only city worth Reconing in Romania:
- Cluj County has had a GDP 37% higher than the national average, with the only county having a GDP 3/4th that of :Bucharest [http://www.romania-central.com/economy-of-romania/the-economy-of-romania/33-development-regions
- -of-romania/339-regional-disparities-in-romania/]. With investments in hundreds of millions of Euros by companies :like Nokia, most of the software from Romania coming form Cluj [http://www.informationweek.com/news/internet
- /showArticle.jhtml?articleID=206103523&queryText=cluj= According to American News Magazine InformationWeek], Multi-billion dollar corporations MOL, Genpact and many more having chosen Cluj over Bucharest. If this does not
- qualify Cluj as a major center of power in Romania, what does? Cluj county and Cluj-Napoca its capital are quite :significant in Romania. The perspective where Cluj Napoca becomes more important than even Bucharest is from that
- of a Hungarian. For a Hungarian from Transylvania, Cluj Napoca is where their their culture is rooted. It is the city :of their greatest king Mtyas. Was the capital years before occupation by Romanians. This is not something you find
- reflected by any Romanian, or Romanian Media or political groups. So it is no surprise that for the Romanians there :is no city worth mentioning other than Bucharest, while Cluj Napoca or Kolozsvar(As called by Hungarians) is
- onsidered precious by Hungarians.
- Role of Vice Mayors:
- The Role of Vice Mayors in Cluj-Napoca is administrative as much as that of the Mayor. They have a definite role - :for example the Hungarian Vice Mayor is responsible for focussing on the general welfare and upkeep of the city
- while safeguarding and promoting acts and regulations that are favorable to their Hungarian Electorate. That is what :the Mayor does as well. So it is better not to twist facts than how they otherwise are. It seems that facts available
- even on Wikipedia are being twisted around with claims that there are no articles of Vice Mayors other than for huge :cities like London. Here are a few:
- - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigme_Namgyal
- - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morten_H%C3%B8glund
- If one has the patience can dig up a whole list of them from cities far less in relevance than Cluj Napoca.
- News about him being not relevant: It is possible to relegate any news about anyone as irrelevant by saying one :it was just a quote, it was about a scandal etc. Janos Boros has been in the news and Hungarian news which have
- sought his opinion and his ongoing work as the Vice Mayor of Cluj Napoca, while the Romanian dallies dish either :insignificant news or news about his scandals. Take for example the news about the restitution of the Roman Catholic
- Church Property was portrayed only in the negative in connection with Janos Boros. While Szabadsag, gives account of :the Hungarian perspective (Reference: [http://www.szabadsag.ro/szabadsag/servlet/szabadsag/template/
- article,PMainArticleScreen.vm/id/1996;jsessionid=360D04D9E99CDDFEC0F47835482AB4CC] ). Incase further proof of the :search results from the Hungarian news dailies being note worthy or not, please use a proper Hungarian-
- English translation service and you will see that the news is not only notable but also quite different and positive :towards Janos Boros.
- Regarding dispute over some of the sources in the Article:
- - "Though during the years of the Boc administration he no longer had to face constant ethnic provocations, his :tenure was not fully void of ethnic disputes, either. Being the vice mayor he was tested time and again in his :ability to reconcile disputes between the majority Romanian governance and the expectations of the minority :Hungarians he represented". The source makes no such claim." If the sources provided in the article are not :sufficient, please refer to this link here where it clearly mentions the existence of ethnic tension about the :removal of King Matyas's statue, between Hungarians and Romanians living in Cluj (http://www.hhrf.org/nepujsag/05okt/5nu1007t.htm ). As quoted by Janos Boros himself in an interview ( [12] ) mentions how difficult it was to be of Hungarian ethnicity with Funar and how he :evolved a peaceful co-working environment under Emil Boc.
- Hangakiran (talk) 01:50, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Being president of a county party organization isn't in itself evidence of notability as a politician. It can be a contributing factor, but if we look for instance at the Social Democrats, of ~40 such presidents, just six (Constantin Niţă, Marian Oprişan, Viorel Hrebenciuc, Oana Niculescu-Mizil, Radu Ştefan Mazăre and Ilie Sârbu) jump out as being notable. A couple more may be, but the point is, it's not that meaningful a position, and all these PSD members are notable for reasons other than their leadership of county parties. (Five have served in Parliament; of these, two have been in Cabinet and one is a big-city mayor. Oprişan, the sixth, while never having held national office, has gained widespread notoriety for his activities, on a level far greater than Boros ever did.)
- I did not say that Bucharest is "the only city worth Reconing in Romania", and that would be an absurd contention. I simply said that by a reasonable definition, it's Romania's only major metropolitan city, and thus this encyclopedia shouldn't tend to have articles on its local officials (other than mayors), unless they've gained press mention that immediately and obviously attests their notability — which would be a stretch in Boros' case.
- Our having an article on the vice-mayor of Lhasa probably falls under WP:WAX. Morten Høglund, of course, sits in the Norwegian Parliament, and that's his primary claim to notability.
- "It is possible to relegate any news about anyone as irrelevant" - well, yes, but it's also possible to make claims of relevance where there's little of that. For instance, yes, Boros has commented on the restitution of a church. But is the church itself notable? If so, once we write an article on the church, I'm sure we can devote a few lines to his comments. But the comments wouldn't necessarily have a place in a biography of his. And yes, the current "sources" for the article are, by and large, on the trivial side. Issuing comments on local matters here and there, passing mentions now and then, are standard in the local press for local officials, but they don't really indicate encyclopedic notability. They happen routinely for thousands of local officials around the world, and usually remain unnoticed by us.
- I know there's been tension about the statue since about 1920. There's a great place we can cover the entire debate: Matthias Corvinus Statue, Cluj-Napoca. - Biruitorul Talk 05:14, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment/Still Suggest Merge: In the first nomination, I felt that being a vice-mayor of Cluj-Napoca was significant as it is the third largest city of Romania so still the decision isn't so clear. Again, a big problem to me remains the fact that Janos Boros is an orphaned article. I suggested merging with another article. UDMR (note that Cluj-Napoca is an important center of this political party) could be another candidate article. Boros isn't even mentioned in it. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 04:33, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Further comment - by the way, I'd like to debunk a meme that the article creator has repeatedly stated, which runs to the effect that Boros hasn't received much mention in the Romanian-language press because he's an ethnic Hungarian and gets ignored for that reason. Let's approach this claim in two ways:
- First, let's look at an ethnic Romanian deputy mayor. How about Romeo Olteanu, deputy mayor of Iaşi, the country's second-largest city? He gets thousands of mentions in local papers, but low double digits or even single digits in the main national newspapers. A situation analogous to that of Boros - by this measure at least, neither man seems to be notable.
- Second, let's pick a relatively obscure ethnic Hungarian mayor: how about Antal Árpád, who heads the rather small city of Sfântu Gheorghe? The same national papers give him many hundreds of mentions, and Antal is likely notable. (I should add, more for his provocative statements and strident stance on Székely autonomy, than simply for the fact that he's a mayor.)
- So you see, deputy mayors do tend to be ignored by the national press, regardless of ethnicity, and notable local officials do receive its attention, again regardless of ethnicity. Given the paucity of national press mention for Boros, and the generally trivial mentions he received in the local press, I think that's further evidence of his failing to meet the notability standards. - Biruitorul Talk 05:43, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The whole discussion is missing the main point, which is "Yes" Janos Boros might not have been a prominent name in National news except for a casual mention once in a while. This is so because the National news is saturated with news of Romanian Politicians. Take for example the case of "Romeo Olteanu". He has been the Vice-Mayor of Iasi only since mid 2008 and a site search of Adevarul = Search result for Romeo Olteanu in a popular Romanian National news daily reveals humungous amount of news referring to him and his actions. This is for a person who has held the Vice Mayors office for just 1.5 years. Do the same for Janos Boros who had the same position for 8 years in a row and Adevarul gives just a one page Search result for Janos :Boros in a popular Romanian National news daily result where only a couple of news links are directly related to him.
- This is just one example of bias in the media.
- About Biruitorul question if the Roman Catholic Church is itself Notable indicates his bias towards minority institutions. Why, because it is has the second largest denomination after the Romanian Orthodox Church with majority of its followers being Hungarian. By the way Roman Catholic Church is notable and does have an article on Wiki = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Romania . I also cannot help but notice the way Biruitorul refers to the Roman Catholic Church as just "The church".
- Hungarians account for under 6 percent of the population and their political party RMDSZ hardly garner as much of the votes. The competition for leadership is intense in such a small political party is intense and in cities with majority Romanian population, it is almost impossible for a minority leader to become the Mayor. Holding 8 years in a row across 2 terms is itself a sign of Janos Boros popularity among the Hungarians.
- To sum it up the right way to look at leaders of Minority like Janos Boros is through the lens of the Minority, The Minority media. As I said earlier if one reads the news coverage for Janos Boros in the Hungarian press coverage it is significant and voluminous. These are the news dailies popular across the much of North-West and parts of Central region housing the much of the Hungarian population in Romania. Hungarians in Romania know who is Janos Boros, while :someone in say Sfantu Gheorghe might not know who Romeo Olteanu is. This is debate seriously should be about protecting an article of a leader from a minority group who definitely is popular among that minority and not if he has National relevance, let alone that being positive. Wikipedia and its rules cannot ignore the environment in which minority leaders survive. The right way is to look at their achievements through the eyes of the minorities themselves
- Hangakiran (talk) 10:50, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- This is moving way beyond ridiculous. Hangakiran, you spare no effort in canvassing for this article, and no strenuous rationale for defending it against wikipedia content guidelines, and you even kicked this whole thread back into existence on the claim that we are all against Boros because it is Hungarian (this being a frivolous and insulting piece of personal propaganda). Never mind that the intense promotion and calumny should have prevented experienced admins from even bothering with this project of yours, but surely you must be aware that the amphibology between "a church" (the building) and "the Church" (the Catholic institution), which you use to misrepresent Biruitorul's argument, is indecent. Unless you're trying to suggest that Boros has rescued the Catholic hierarchy or faith in Romania - if you plan to, at least let me get my popcorn first.
- To everyone else: this is not a nationality issue; there is absolutely nothing about Boros' case that would make it relevant whether he is a victim of anti-Hungarian sentiment. Hangakiran's core argument, so often seen in AfD's, is the simple sophistry: "If you're against my biographical article, you're against [insert people, religion, class, clan, profession]." I couldn't tell you how many times I have seen this line of thinking surfacing among Romanian users, so very often nationalist Romanian users, who did not understand what wikipedia is about. And, quite clearly, Boros is by no means and under no definition a "leader" of a minority group - he is simply a bureaucrat who took over an office which is assigned by default, according to party politics and election scores. No community will be "harmed" by him not having a bio on wikipedia, no romantic tears will be shed.
- The substance of this vote refers to the notability of a person, any person, in his position. Whether we are wrong or not, me and Biruitorul have stated that the basic criterion is not met - and Biruitorul has patently and convincingly shown how sources were manipulated to write what is basically a promotional CV from someone who has so intensely campaigned for this article. Our objectivity in handling this topic is noted even by those who disagree with our position: a user above has payed us an undeserved compliment, noting that, "Without a doubt there are some legitimate concerns with this article, such as tone and it's creator's list of contributions making a description of 'most likely promotional' accurate. However these problems can sometime be fixed by rewriting by someone else. I think the ideal solution here would be a stub written by someone like Dahn or Biruitorul."
- Enough said. Dahn (talk) 11:35, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I think I did interpret Biruitorul correctly. He presents the news in the source as "Boros has commented on the restitution of a church. But is the church itself notable?". The core of the matter was about restitution of property belonging to "The" Roman Catholic Church in Romania, The Institution - NOT "a" Church. If amphiboly has occurred, it must surely have been in the way Biruitorul presented the news in the source.
- Is ethnicity important in this discussion? Yes! Here is why: All Romanian contributors demanding widespread recognition pan-Romania for Janos Boros to prove Notability is absurd. Why? Please read how Janos Boros with a 8 year tenure as Vice Mayor compares with Romeo Olteanu in one of Major Romanian News Dailies. Romeo Olteanu get voluminous results while Janos Boros get just a page. That is why I am saying that this discussion should be whether Janos Boros is Notable and Popular among the Ethnicity which he represents? Yes, he is. Is this accusing anyone of being Nationalistic, No! This is the truth, however harsh.
- Inspite of me giving sources from Major Hungarian news dailies with tons of quality references you continue to claim that his Notability is of question. This attitude infact proves my point above.
- It is not my intention to sound or be Nationalistic in my approach in this discussion. The truth remains that the Hungarians rights and any news about them is misrepresented by Romanian News dailies. Take the example of Adevarul the leading news Daily in Romanian trying to portray schools run by Hungarians to help their children learn in their mother tounge as illegal and bad and promoting anti-hungarian sentiments and accusing RMDSZ of being racially intolerant. What was their fault, the Hungarians and the RMDSZ wanted their children to study in their language. Click here for the article: [13].
- I can give you plenty of such reports from the Hungarian Media when they feel they have misrepresented by the Romanian National Media. In essence my point is not to sound "Nationalistic" and accuse you of being one. My focus is to point out the ground reality which this discussion should factor in - "It is better to judge a leader representing a Ethnic :Minority by that Minorities Media arms and by its people".
- I wish to sum my point of view here for one last time(Hopefully). Articles of leaders like Janos Boros who are popular among their Ethnic minority group to this day, will find much unfavorable mention in the media dominated by the major ethnicity and hardly any mention after their tenures. So to determine if such a person is notable or not entirely based on National Media will take the focus away from the person's notability among his people. This view is not meant to sound Nationalistic like Dahn claims, but infact is reflected and felt widespread among Hungarians. For them their regional news media entities like Szabadsag are the ones which bring balanced views about things Hungarian and related to their leaders.
- Hangakiran (talk) 12:46, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Repeating the term "minority", incantation-like, won't add to his claim of notability. The rest of your post is largely inconsequential, except I will note that Romeo Olteanu gets 47 hits in Adevărul and Janos Boros 9, so very much on the same scale, and very much showing the general lack of importance the Romanian press accords to deputy mayors, minority or not. - Biruitorul Talk 16:00, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Borderline Keep Seems to meet GNG based on the sources shown. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:09, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep, and Note: this is an interesting discussion above. One pro-delete editor is already blocked; other one seems to be busy stalking pro-keep editors and tracking whether they "canvass" anyone in any Wikimedia projects whatsoever... I'm not really sure this all goes objectively. As well as I'd like to note that the prejudgement that the invited editors cannot think for themselves is borderline offensive. (Inviting people to follow a debate they aren't aware of isn't a sin in my opinion, and it's unrealistic to act like it was.) My experience usually shows that most Hungarian and most Romanian editors can live just happily together but from time to time a few ones start nationality-heated debates about basically nothing. I'm not through the whole discussion, but I remember it from the last time, where it's been cited that the guy have references in Hungarian language (at least, and a few mentions elsewhere), which pretty much justified keeping it. What I don't really see why do some fellow editors actually fight for deleting it? Third time, too? Because he's a Hungarian nationality Romanian politician? Because the references are in ("evil") Hungarian? Because he didn't (shouldn't?) earned the right(?) to be published more in the Romanian media? We actually burn ten times more bits debating this whole shebang than by keeping the article and let it rest. I'm actually fine with having two dozen meaningful Romanian politicians around, if anyone cares. (Of course I already could live without more than one Hungarian ones, either.) --grin ✎ 15:00, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Policy-based reasons for keeping, rather than ones casting aspersions, would be much appreciated. Yes, WP:CANVASS is policy, yes, sending out a dozen invitations to users one thinks will share an opinion, even ostensibly "neutral" invitations, is against that policy, and no, checking up on a proven canvassing user's contributions at other projects is not "stalking". No convincing evidence of notability has been presented in any language, and no, no one has said or implied the article should be deleted because Boros is Hungarian or because the "references" (trivial as they are) are in Hungarian, so you can stop with that line of argument right there. Yes, his lack of coverage in the Romanian-language press, considering he was active in the capital of Transylvania, and that that same press routinely provides ample coverage on plenty of ethnic Hungarian politicians (and note that I deliberately chose "second-tier" ones for those searches), is a strong indicator that notability is lacking. That, and the similarly mundane mentions he received in the Hungarian-language press. So please, if you do participate here, try to show how and why he meets WP:POLITICIAN, and steer clear of muddying the waters with talk of ethnic-based voting. - Biruitorul Talk 16:00, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Regarding canvassing, I posted request for participation in good faith. The administrator has asked me not to any more, I have agreed. So there ends the discussion about it. The focus of this discussion should not be on the article now and not in else.
- Biruitorul Janos Boros has ample coverage in Hungarian media starting right from 1999 up until now. :And I have presented them in my previous posts. It is easy to just say there was none even after one presents the evidence. That is not nice. A person who is not notable cannot be in the news for such a long time. He has also been the President of RMDSZ for the State of Cluj. If these do not qualify him for WP:POLITICIAN, what will? I have heard your argument before, it is about the Romanian media, national level etc. I reiterate what i said in my previous posts, Janos Boros needs to be judged not by his notability according to Romanian Media but by that in Hungarian Media and the Hungarian people. It seems you either did not read through my posts properly or refuse to acknowledge, so I am posting a few links more for your perusal as to why Janos Boros is relevant for the Hungarians. Hope you read it this time around
- - 1997 from the Archives of Szabadsag, the Hungarian news daily quotes him as Chairman of RMDSZ of the state of Cluj :with the Japanese Consul. This is the post he has held for 4 Years before becoming the Vice Mayor till mid 2000
:http://archivum.szabadsag.ro/archivum/1997/7nov-28.htm
- - A 2000 Entry which cites him in the role of Public Administrator of DAHR(The English acronym for RMDSZ party)
: http://www.hhrf.org/monitor/002rom.htm
- - 12th Jan 2001 Gives a citation of how Gheorghe Funar, the Romanian Mayor, opposes Janos Boros who is by then the Vice :Mayor in setting up a Office for Minorities in the Mayor's office. He held this office for two consecutive terms, that :is for 8 years till 2009.
: http://www.hhrf.org/monitor/101rom.htm
- These are to one prove that he does pass WP:Politician. All the links I have posted in previous posts will prove his notability. It would be appreciated if the Romanian editors vying to have this article deleted not come back with misleading statements like "He doesn't even find mention here or there OR The mentions are not noteworthy". All sources cited by my in the discussion of this article have links which are relevant and notable. In case you need more, I will more than happy to be of help with translations for as many number of news articles in the Hungarian Media you deem fit to ask.
- Janos Boros person who has been the head of the State Unit for the largest political representing minorities in Romania :for 4 years and then 8 years as the Vice Mayor of the Capital of that state. This he was because of the popularity among :his people the Hungarians. That is how his stature should be seen. They way this discussion has developed is demeaning :to him as a person and the service rendered by him to his community.
- So I ask Janos Boros to be seen through the lens of the Hungarian Media and its People.
- Hangakiran (talk) 17:16, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- To begin with, it's Cluj County. There is no such thing as a "state" on the sub-national level in Romania.
- In response to your question about the notability of his being county party chairman, let me repeat myself: "Being president of a county party organization isn't in itself evidence of notability as a politician. It can be a contributing factor, but if we look for instance at the Social Democrats, of ~40 such presidents, just six (Constantin Niţă, Marian Oprişan, Viorel Hrebenciuc, Oana Niculescu-Mizil, Radu Ştefan Mazăre and Ilie Sârbu) jump out as being notable. A couple more may be, but the point is, it's not that meaningful a position, and all these PSD members are notable for reasons other than their leadership of county parties. (Five have served in Parliament; of these, two have been in Cabinet and one is a big-city mayor. Oprişan, the sixth, while never having held national office, has gained widespread notoriety for his activities, on a level far greater than Boros ever did.)"
- Let me also repeat another theme you seem to be missing: in Romania, ethnic Hungarian politicians who are genuinely notable will receive ample coverage in the national press; I've shown this over and over. Especially as we're talking about someone active in a city that's 80% Romanian.
- I'm sorry, but your "sources" continue to be in the same WP:NOTNEWS vein of routine mentions, and don't satisfy the "significant coverage" requirement of WP:GNG. Yes, he was a local official mentioned now and then in the local press, but so are tens of thousands of others worldwide. That doesn't mean he met the bar for inclusion in an encyclopedia. - Biruitorul Talk 17:38, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- There is no comparison of County presidents of PSD with County President of RMDSZ because RMDSZ is the only party representing the Hungarians(If we ignore the couple of minuscule ones trying popout the last couple of years). On the Other hand Romanians have 3 major parties and many more medium sized minor ones. The loyalties are divided. So it is not easy said in case of PSD leaders that their leadership was representative of the favour of all Romanians. That CAN be said about Janos Boros about the loyalty of HUngarians voters to him, as he represents the ONLY party which represents the Hungarian minority in Romania. So him being elected Cluj County Head for 4 years in a row clearly qualifies him as [WP:Politican], not because I say so, but by Point 1 under the guidelines. While any of the people whom you mention, even if they were to lead their parties for the same tenure would not mean they are representative of all Romanians as Janos Boros was to Hungarians.
- Sorry, but your claims here are veering into the preposterous. So what if the UDMR is the main party representing the 6.6% of Romanians who are of Hungarian ethnicity? The PNL is (or claims to be) the only major party representing the 15% of Romanians who are economic liberals, while the PSD is the only major party representing the 35% of Romanians who are social democrats. Also, you can't quite call the PCM "minuscule"; it won over a third of the Szekely vote at the 2008 local elections. And of course, only 8.5% of Hungarians in Romania actually live in Cluj County, so even if we stretch things a little and call him their "leader" (an odd notion, since Romania is not a party-state, and people do tend to live their daily lives quite without reference to political "leaders"), he was no leader to the other 91.5%. I'd accept the notion that László Tőkés and Béla Markó are/were "leaders" of Romania's Hungarians; perhaps also someone like György Frunda; but I think no one has ever made the claim for Boros before this discussion.
- Do consult for a moment the list of UDMR county party heads. Of these, Iuliu Winkler and Attila Verestoy (whose biographies here, incidentally, were written by me) are notable; so is Attila Kelemen — but, at least at first brush, none of the others are. And no, the ethnic-based status of their party doesn't confer automatic notability on them, either. - Biruitorul Talk 20:40, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- My sources are news worthy. You are doing exactly what I said in my last post: Just ignore the posts, not raise specifics, but make random generalizations like they are not even news, they are vague and so on. So for your benefit let me give you summaries for a few links here below. As I said, if you need more, please don't hesitate to ask, I can keep giving summaries for as many news worthy links for you as you want.
- Link 1: http://archivum.szabadsag.ro/archivum/1997/7aug-07.htm#E13E4
States that in 1997 Janos Boros the President of RMDSZ, CLuj County, presenting before an Administrative Board the proposal of the Hungarians to allow them to have Namebaords of legal establishments in Hungarian and Romanian. Janos Boros Goes on to explain the difficulties the Romanian authorities are posing to stop its implementation.
- Link 2: http://archivum.szabadsag.ro/main.php?datum=20060111
A 2006 news quote Janos Boros assuring Hungarian Farmers who lost their lands during communism, that as the Chairman of Committee for Land Reforms in Cluj Municipality and as the Vice Mayor, the steps he was going to take to speed up the processes that were required from the city hall.
- Link 3: http://archivum.szabadsag.ro/main.php?datum=20060324
In this link of 2006 Janos Boros explains the steps he has taken to fast track the process of restoration of King Matyas's Statue, which the Hungarians considers as their greatest king. He also goes onto quote how the process was held hostage by Gheorghe Funar the Nationailistic Romanian Mayor of Cluj earlier.
- Link 4: http://maszol.ro/tarsadalom/97508
In the 2009 link Janos Boros describes what he feels about the manace of beggars on the streets of Cluj Napoca and how he plans to put a stop to this habit of begging.
- If this is not enough, just let me know how many of what type you need, will give the links.
Hangakiran (talk) 19:12, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- You may want to keep familiarizing yourself with the news vs. encyclopedic content dichotomy. - Biruitorul Talk 20:40, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The links were not meant for the inclusion in the Article of Janos Boros, but as a sample of the coverage he has received since his tenure at the head of RMDSZ started in 1997. The quality and content are similar to any politician who has been a Mayor or Vice Mayor of Cluj. This was in support of his notability. Furthermore Notability is a guideline not a policy under Wikipedia rules for Biographies. Given the fact that Janos Boros was the President of RMDSZ since 1997 to 2000 and the First Hungarian to Occupy the Vice Mayors Chair in Cluj Napoca after the end of communism and held the tenure for 8 consequtive years qualifies him under WP:Politician. Hangakiran (talk) 21:19, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- As you (hopefully) know, Boros was not President of the UDMR from 1997 to 2000; Béla Markó held that position from 1993 to 2011; Boros was merely head of one of its 29 branches, which on no account renders him notable. As for the vice mayor position: so? He is simply a bureaucrat who took over an office which is assigned by default, according to party politics and election scores. Seriously, did anyone devote any special attention to that fact? And did you pay attention to the fact that a mere handful of deputy mayors (of the thousands worldwide) are noticed by Wikipedia, or that no deputy mayor, of whatever ethnicity, ever really gets covered in the Romanian press, which does (your baseless claims notwithstanding) devote ample coverage to ethnic Hungarian politicians who actually do have valid claims of notability? - Biruitorul Talk 23:53, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: A vice-mayor of a city of 400,000? We don't likely have many articles like that here. This discussion seems like horrible mess at this point. (note, i don't believe any regular ARS member tagged this for rescue.)--Milowent • talkblp-r 06:22, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Biruitorul This is the second time you are trying to misinterpret and misrepresent what I said. Clearly if you look at all my posts, I clearly said, Janos Boros was the President of RMDSZ for Cluj County. Second he is NOT simply a bureaucrat who took over office as you depict it to be, the process which you seemingly seem to be unaware of is that he got elected through voting in the Cluj Napoca Council election. Third let us look at the Rome Olteanu the Vice Mayor to Iasi, he has humungous number of mentions[14] in the National Media. Take the example of coverage by Adevarul about Romeo Olteanu: Yet he is just 1.5 years into his tenure. On the other hand for Janos Boros who has been the Vice Mayor for 8 years of another big city in Romania, Adevarul has just a page[15] to show. THIS is the bias I am trying to show that exists in the Romanian Media. If one wants to see Janos Boros's notability take a look at the coverage he got in Hungarian press. Even after someone presents facts about that Janos Boros was the President of the largest party for Minoroty for the County of Cluj for nearly 4 years, the held Vice Mayorship for 8 years, meaning that he was at the helm among the leaders RMDSZ party leadership for the County of Cluj for nearly 12 Years in a row. This by definition is indicative of the popularity among his people. This is no small feat.Also qualifies him under WP:Politician. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hangakiran (talk • contribs) 09:55, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Let me make this short. 1) Look, Hangakiran, these pages are not forums, and your rebuttals can't go on forever. If you haven't made your point by now, you'll not be making it by flooding this discussion with your more or less accurate comments. 2) As was noted, president of a regional branch of the UDMR/RMDSZ doesn't count for much notability-wise, nor does it make Boros a "leader" of the party, let alone "leader of the Hungarian community". Let's adhere to a modicum of common sense. 3) Yes he is simiply a bureaucrat, since vice-mayoral offices in Romania, everywhere, go to the people nominated by the party after local election scores are in - you will find that they are mostly assigned to the nobodies of party politics, since they greatly hamper someone's chances of political advancement, being highly specialized and virtually invisible political offices. 4) You should really learn to restrict your google searches: a search for Romeo Olteanu gives you all the possible pages where "Romeo" and "Olteanu" (both of them common Romanian names) appear, in whatever order, however far apart. Try searching for "Romeo Olteanu", subtract the blog entries, forums, his Romanian wikipedia bio and other crap, and you end up with very little credible results - the few that still point to national media have been counted above, and they don't take up that much time to read through and note the triviality (WP:NOTNEWS). This is roughly similar to what Mr. Boros gets. Really now. Dahn (talk) 10:19, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Dahn, I think I have the right to post my rebuttals to all your posts. Interesting the way you put it, you seem to suggest I have no right to post my reply after you have made your point of view. This is not fair. Anyway, regarding your statements just made by you regarding the article:
- • Point 2: That is YOUR point of view stated as a fact my friend. The head of a state unit of a political party does qualify under WP:Politician guidelines. That he was the Vice Mayor strengthens the case. And moreover at the county/state level these are two of the highest posts for a Hungarian politician. He was at the highest position a Hungarian can possibly be at, in the County level.
- • Point 3: Vice Mayorship of for Hungarians is not given to push aside someone in Hungarian politics. It might happen in Romanian parties, if you say so. There I have no idea. But surely not in RMDSZ. So please don't make statements you cannot substantiate. And don't say "take my word for it".
- • Interesting you are getting this vague results unlike what I see. Take a look at this search again: http://www.google.ro/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=war&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=%22Romeo+Olteanu%22+site%3A+www.adevarul.ro&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq= . I did search for "Romeo Olteanu" and clearly see most of the results do refer to him directly and his actions as the Vice Mayor.
- I request you not make comments like "Yes he is simiply a bureaucrat, since vice-mayoral offices in Romania, everywhere, go to the people nominated by the party after local election scores are in - you will find that they are mostly assigned to the nobodies of party politics, since they greatly hamper someone's chances of political advancement, being highly specialized and virtually invisible political offices.". This is insinuating that Janos Boros is a nobody, is unsubstantiated and evidently trying to malign him and belittle his achievements. This is not to be done in this discussion. Kindly stick to statements you can prove with sources, not "your words".
- Hangakiran (talk) 10:48, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not going to waste the day bickering about this with you, you're obviously set in your campaign to keep this misleading article and the rationale supporting it. To clarify, this is my third post on this page, so you were not in fact replying to me. Carry on "answering" if you will, but expect to lose all your remaining credibility when you're manipulating info with sophistry. As for me answering all your claims, including about how Vice-Mayors are "somebodies" including in provincial cities, or how Boros' office is notable in itself, or how google hits prove "bias" against Boros and for Olteanu, let me just end my interventions here with this note, that I was otherwise going to add to an earlier post: This is roughly similar to what Mr. Boros gets. And don't take my word for it: check out what a regional newspaper has to say about none other than Mr. Olteanu: "Viceprimarul Romeo Olteanu, un anonim pentru ieseni. Iesenii nu stiu cine este si ce activitate desfasoara viceprimarul Romeo Olteanu. Un sondaj realizat in perioada ianuarie - martie 2010 pe un esantion de 1474 de persoane arata ca 63% dintre subiecti nu au cunostinta despre cine este si ce face acest edil." ("Vice-Mayor Radu Olteanu, an anonymous man as far as the people of Iaşi care. The people of Iaşi have no clue who Vice-Mayor Romeo Olteanu is and what his field of activity is supposed to cover. A poll carried out in January-March 2010 among 1,474 people shows that 63% of those interviewed have no clue about who this official is and what he supposedly does.") Tolle, lege. Dahn (talk) 10:59, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Please stop using words like "bickering" and "manipulating info with sophistry". I am set in nothing but to defend as rationally as possible, yes. I have a right to answer to posts which I find unfair. A poll showing Romeo Olteanu as not known to people in Iasi does not mean the same applies to Janos Boros. You logic seems to run like A is a fruit, B is a Fruit and if A is rotten as a consequence so is B. This is logical fallacy. Hangakiran (talk) 11:59, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- No, my logic is: rotten or not, both A and B are fruits. Since you claimed that the Romanian fruit is more exposed, let's note that the allegedly more exposed fruit is still anonymous among his fellow Iaşi folk! Dahn (talk) 12:06, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- My claim was that Romeo Olteanu who has held office fo rjust 1.5 years, irrespective of whether he is popular among his people or not, gets more mileage than Janos Boros who has been at the helm of Hungarian Politics in Cluj County for nearly 12 years on the Adevarul. This was to show how skewed news reportage in Romanian media is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hangakiran (talk • contribs) 12:11, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- And that's why your claim is special pleading. Dahn (talk) 12:13, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- *Your claiming so does not make it one. You have to explain why? Hangakiran (talk) 12:20, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was KEEP. postdlf (talk) 16:55, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In Astronomy the only one available characteristic empirical physical constant is the gravitational constant. Without completing the charge-mass unification or final unification: one cannot say, whether it is an ‘input to the unification’ or ‘output of unification’. The same idea can be applied to the atomic physical constants also. Sitting in a grand unified roof one cannot make an ‘absolute measurement’ but can make an ‘absolute finding’. Till today no atomic model implemented the gravitational constant in the atomic or nuclear physics. Then, whatever may be its magnitude, measuring its value from existing atomic principles is impossible. Its value was measured in the lab within a range of 1 cm to 1 meter only where as the observed nuclear size is 1.2 fermi. Until one measures the value of the gravitational constant in microscopic physics, the debate of strong (nucler) gravity can be considered positively. The idea of strong gravity originally referred specifically to mathematical approach of Abdus Salam of unification of gravity and quantum chromodynamics, but is now often used for any particle level gravity approach. Now many persons are working on this subject. The main advantage of this subject is: it couples Black hole physics and Particle physics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.248.205.121 (talk) 12:47, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong gravitational constant (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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nominator changes to keep/improve WP:FRINGE. Article cites one utterly non-notable mainstream reference (Sivaram & Sinha 1977, cited 10 times 1978-1993, only twice by someone other than Sivaram or Sinha); two recognizable crackpot journals (cold fusion and Progress in Physics); and four articles apparently by User:fedosin himself. Oldershaw 2007 is in a dubious journal and has never been cited; moreover Oldershaw is a collaborator of Fedosin's and their joint work has been AfD'ed before (Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Infinite_Hierarchical_Nesting_of_Matter) Bm gub (talk) 18:51, 21 March 2011 (UTC) Bm gub (talk) 18:51, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for the beginning of discussion. I have some remarks. First of all, Oldershaw only one author in Russian Wikipedia article about Infinite Hierarchical Nesting of Matter, and the article is there some years.
In second shot list of references to Strong gravitational constant may be explained as the idea is only in recent time become more actual because of difficulties of Standard theory of particles.
You quite right when say about some of the references are not in very popular journals. But new ideas very seldom are published in popular journals if authors do not well-known. So on the base of discussion I feel it is necessary to add some other references in article Strong gravitational constant. Two of them are papers of Nobel Laureate in Physics Abdus Salam, and first of it with Sivaram C., mentioned above:
- Salam A. and Sivaram C. Strong Gravity Approach to QCD and Confinement. Mod. Phys. Lett., 1993, v. A8(4), 321–326.
- Strong Interactions, Gravitation and Cosmology. Abdus Salam Publ. in: NATO Advanced Study Institute, Erice, June16-July 6, 1972 ; in: High Energy Astrophysics and its Relation to Elementary Particle Physics, 441-452 MIT Press, Cambridge (1974).
I also added two papers of Recami (but he and coauthors has a lot also about the Strong gravitational constant):
- Recami, E.; Ammiraju, P.; Hernandez, H.E.; Kretly, L.C.; Rodrigues, W.A., Jr. Elementary particles as micro-universes: a geometric approach to "strong gravity". Apeiron, January 01, 1997.
- Recami E. and Tonin-Zanchin V. The strong coupling constant: its theoretical derivation from a geometric approach to hadron structure. Found. Phys. Lett., 1994, v, 7(1), 85–92.
I also added two papers (see article Strong gravitational constant about it):
- Stone R.A. Quark Confinement and Force Unification. Progress in Physics, April 2010, Vol. 2, P. 19–20.
- Perng J. J. Strong gravitation and elementary particles. Nuovo Cimento, Lettere, Serie 2, vol. 23, N. 15, 1978, p. 552-554.
Fedosin (talk) 13:10, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for the input Fedosin. However, you have just supplied links to a set of well-known WP:FRINGE journals. Progress in Physics and Apeiron are both in . Until t'Hooft took over, Foundations of Physics was just as bad.
- Nuovo Cimento is highly variable and historically has published lots of nonsense. Let's look at the particular document you cite: It's from an author with no other published work whatsoever. It's cited only once, and only by Singh, and in a way that doesn't really use any of its conclusions. (It's mentioned as one of two papers that make a similar choice of ansatz.) Your links seem to support, not refute, my impression that "Strong gravity" is a non-notable topic, pursued 20 years ago by a small number of non-mainstream physicists; and that it was barely publishable even at the time and is certainly forgotten now.
- What would help would be a *mainstream review article* citing these papers and explaining their context, but clicking through citation-links I find no evidence that any such article exists. Bm gub (talk) 18:39, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- OK The Salam article is a different story. This is an obviously non-fringe author, and it leads to actual citations that continue---many in a fringe-y way, but not all---into the present day. This is enough to convince me to withdraw the AfD. Change to keep. Fedosin, I think the article could be improved to reflect Salam's involvement, and the actual status of those ideas in the cited literature---and please be so kind as to deemphasize your own (uncited, non-mainstream) papers, however important they are to you. Bm gub (talk) 18:48, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- From the discussion it is seen that in Wikipedia must be the list of journals which are named bad for references. In your opinion in the article are WP:FRINGE journals. May be it so. But in WP:FRINGE I do not find the list of such journals. It leads to subjectivity, no to objectivity in discussions about quality of references.
You quite right in that "Strong gravity" is a little-notable topic and is not in mainstream. May be anyone ready to write a *mainstream review article* on the topic. But it will very hard for me since I do not believe in modern Standard Model. The reason for it - it is the first physical theory, which have so many – about 19 unexplained parameters. I do not find in the Model viable and universal mechanism of strong forces.
My own references were limited only to explain the texts. May be it is possible to do in another way. If it necessary other users of Wikipedia can edit according to the rules.
Fedosin (talk) 06:04, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The fringe list is linked here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fringe_science_journals. (I tried to link to this earlier but did it wrong.)
- It does not matter whether you believe in the standard model or not. For the purposes of Wikipedia, you should be editing in a well-balanced and encyclopedic way that reflects the knowledge of the *field*, not that reflects your own personal views. If you want to argue against the standard model and in favor of "strong gravity", please do so in the refereed science journals---and allow Wikipedia to report when your views have become notable there. Bm gub (talk) 18:58, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:15, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would replace this article with a more "encyclopedic" Bi-scale Gravity article.
BEGIN SUGGESTED ARTICLE
Bi-scale Gravity
Bi-Scalar Gravity is a (non-mainstream) theoretical approach to particle confinement originally suggested by Einstein [1] where there is a cosmological scale gravity and a particle scale gravity.
In the 1960's, it was taken up as an alternative to the then young QCD theory by several notable theorist including Salam (Strong Gravity) [2], Recami (Bi-metric Gravity) [3], and others. Both Salam and Recami showed that the particle level gravity approach produced confinement and asymptotic freedom, while not requiring a new force behavior (vs. 1/r2) as does QCD. Sivaram [4] gives a review of the various potentials of the strong /bi-metric gravity approach.
The term Strong Gravity originally referred specifically to Salam's mathematical approach, but is now often used for any particle level gravity approach. The notations used for strong gravity are not consistent but vary with the author (e.g. sG, Gs, Γ).
A basic attraction of a particle level gravity approach, in addition to not requiring a new force behavior, is that it solves the Hierarchical Problem [5,6], results in a force unification at the particle level [7], and gives a reason for the Reggie trajectory like pattern of particle masses [7,8].
String theory and the Hierarchical Problem
Although string theory has had success in producing the magnitude of other particle forces, it has grossly failed to produce the value of cosmological gravity. One solution given by Arkani-Hamed [5] and Antoniadis[9], was to have strings of two scales differing by about 10^19. With this they were able to produce the cosmological gravity constant (an inter-scale value).
As pointed out by Arkani-Hamed [5] and P.Caldirola, M.Pavsic & E.Recami [6] a multi-scalar approach also solves the Hierarchical Problem.
Note that in this bi-string theory approach the inter-scale gravity value is a constant because it reflects the difference in the two scales. Thus "intra-scale gravity" value is not required to be constant .
Various Approaches
Different authors have treated the role of the particle level gravity in a different manor. The main differences are scope (confinement only, confinement + other effects like nuclear force or the weak force) and properties (constant, variable, sourced).
For example Salem [2] only treats confinement while Recami [3,10,11] treats confinement and associated strong coupling constant and the mass states bottomonium and charmonium. Stone [7] treats confinement and based on a strong gravity suggestion by Sivaram [4] makes a connection to the weak angle.
Some move outside of confinement to associate strong gravity with other particle properties. Oldershaw [12] and Stone[7] connect it to the proton radius, Seshavatharam and Lakshminarayana [13] connect strong gravity to the Fermi constant and nuclear binding energy, J. Dufour [14] to the interaction of two deuterium nuclei.
All of these approaches result in strong gravity values in the range of about 1028 m3 kg-1 s-2 with a variation about this value of ~ 103.
Most authors treat particle level gravity as a constant while Stone [7] treats sGxmx2 (x=p, e, μ etc.) as a constant where the strong gravity source is the particle’s energy (spin angular momentum energy). Just as charge and spin couple to give the fsc (e^2/.5 ћc), Stone [7] couples the constant sGxmx2 and spin (.5 ћc/sGxmx2) to give a charged weak angle values of .2344 vs. the PDG value of .2312 This also means there is a unification of forces at the particle level.
END ARTICLE (references not included here for "brevity" but available)
In this way the basic concepts would not be lost while highlighting some of the areas of application. Other references to some of the main information (e.g. other references to Reggie trajectory behavior) by other authors can be added if applicable. If acceptable to others replacing the strong gravity article with this or similar bi-scale gravity article would be fine with me.
--Robert a stone jr (talk) 14:15, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was DELETE. The arguments below that this was a WP:POVFORK and a synthesis were substantive and not credibly rebutted. The mere fact that the article is sourced, really the best defense I see below, does not prove otherwise, as the very nature of the problem is that it sticks together bits that belong in other, already existing, articles, and I do not see a strong argument or consensus establishing that those sources treat this as a singular, coherent topic. Numerous merger targets for such bits, to the extent they are valid and sourced, have been noted in the discussion below, such as racism in the Arab world. I find completely unpersuasive and not consistent with policy the claim that this article is necessary to maintain NPOV because an Allegations of Israeli apartheid article exists; each topic must be evaluated on its own terms and according to what reliable sources report, without regard to our own subjective notions of fairness within Wikipedia. postdlf (talk) 03:54, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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AfDs related to this article:
- Accusations of Arab Apartheid (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Article functions as a WP:COATRACK for every negative action that the Arab world has ever been accused of. Just because a commentator uses the word "apartheid" does not make the criticisms similar. Moreover, how can one Arab group (the Bahraini or Lebanese governments) practice "apartheid" against another Arab group (i.e. Shiites in Bahrain or Palestinians in Lebanon). It totally misconstrues the notion of what apartheid was. TM
- Nonesense. If some Israeli Mizrachi/Arabic Jews are "blamed" for "racism" against Arabs... so can this be. The fact is that there's Arab discrimination against Arab-Palestinians is undisputed. there's NO COATRACK here, there are several well sourced articles that many Arab systems are accused of.Chorlseton (talk) 13:59, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- namiba TM, "Never been accused of"? Excuse me??? How about in the Arab apartheid accusations already in the 1980s by the organization fighting for Mauritanians' rights. see my comment at the bottom.--Doogielien (talk) 01:43, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Not true. What is OR here by citing the sources that specifically state apartyheid accusations?Chorlseton (talk) 13:59, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Words have specific origins, then their use broadens. Apartheid is an Afrikaans word coined in the specific conditions of South Africa. Today, however, apartheid is used in political discourse when one group is perceived to relegate another group into an inferior legal status. Gender apartheid, for example, is widely discussed, with no racial connotation. As is Israel and the apartheid analogy; the divide between Israelis and Arabs is certainly not racial, it is ethno/religious. Many students of Africa, including the distinguished George Ayittey see the treatment of the people of Darfur by the Arab government and dominant ethnie of Sudan as a form of Apartheid, Ayittey also applies the term to Mauritania. Nicholas Kristof sees an analogy to apartheid in the treatment of the discriminated against Shia majority by the Sunni ruling class of Bahrain. The distinguished Arab journalist Khaled Abu Toameh sees apartheid in the official Lebanese denial to Palestinian refugees not only of citizenship, but of the right to purchase real estate, hold jobs, or be admitted to hospitals, despite the fact that fully three generations of these families have been born and reared on Lebanese soil. This article admittedly needs significant expansion. As the sections about, for example, the practice of apartheid against the Coptic Christians of Egypt is improved and expanded, it could have a separate article , as gender apartheid does. What the sections have in common with one another and with apartheid era South Africa is the practice in a large number of Arab societies of essentializing individuals, of defining groups by ascribed status (Christian, Shia, Palestinian, women, marsh Arabs, non Arab) and denying all members of the group rights enjoyed by members of the dominant group in a society which may, in Bahrain as it was in South Africa, be a ruling minority.I.Casaubon (talk) 15:59, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Lots more material is available on this topic. In particular, google: sudan Darfur arab apartheid. Many scholars and journalists have described the pan-Arab nature of support for the apartheid-like policies of the Sudanese government discrimination against non-Arab Sudanese citizens.I.Casaubon (talk) 16:32, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- well said.Chorlseton (talk) 13:59, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Tentative Keep - There are sources, and the terminology is not unfitting, and has been used by sources (in both the Israeli and Arab cases). However, this is going to be an NPOV nightmare, so while it seems a credible article, I wouldn't be sad if it goes! Bennydigital (talk) 17:00, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. WP:NPOV. The criticism that some Arabs are racist has been made in reliable sources—and we have an article for it (Racism in the Arab world). The criticism that some Arabs are sexist has also been made in reliable sources, and our article for that is called Women in Arab societies. Last thing we need is a content fork.—S Marshall T/C 21:54, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- This article is not about racism. It is about social, economic and legal inferiority imposed on a racially indistinguishable group by the governing group. Like the Lebanese laws that bar Palestinians from owning property.I.Casaubon (talk) 22:38, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- "Racism in the Arab world covers an array of forms of intolerance against non-Arab groups, minorities in the middle east and Arab rule on Africans."—first sentence of Racism in the Arab world, as of the time of typing. This is clearly in scope.—S Marshall T/C 23:01, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- What an odd opening sentence. The article itself begins and continues with extensive documentation of "old fashioned" hated of and discrimination against people with very dark skin in the Arab world. By contrast, I found the term Arab apartheid being used to deal with discrimination against people of the same skin color and physical type, but different identity, i.e. Egyptian Arab apartheid against Egyptian Copts. Lebanese Arab apartheid against Palestinian Arabs. Sunni apartheid against Shia in Saudi Arabia and Bahrain. The concept of apartheid is distinguishable from that of racism, there are, for example, articles about both Jim Crow laws and Racism in the United States.I.Casaubon (talk) 23:28, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh so you mean this is a fork of Religious intolerance as well. Passionless -Talk 23:37, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- When Sunni Arabs in Lebanon pass laws against Sunni Palestinians in Lebanon it is not religious intolerance. And don't look now, but the black-skinned people being killed by Arabs in Darfur are Muslim.I.Casaubon (talk) 23:49, 21 March 2011 (UTC) Evidence of apartheid in Mauritania is also damning, and practiced by Arab Muslims against black African Muslims.[reply]
- Delete So a few people used the word apartheid instead of racist or discrimatory, these few acts should be added to their respective article rather than creating a content fork. Things like "Lebanese laws that bar Palestinians from owning property." are common in most nations of the world like how Mexican laws bar Americans from owning property. Passionless -Talk 23:14, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It is in fact uncommon for a group that legally resided in a country for three generations to be forbidden to buy property, hold a job, or get hospital care because their great-great-grandparents were born in a specific country. The Palestinian refugees in Lebanon are in a fairly unique position.I.Casaubon (talk) 23:28, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Luckily that's all irrelevant to this discussion and my reason that this article needs to be deleted is still WP:POVFORK. Passionless -Talk 23:33, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
*Keep Supported by reliable sources, here and here. Article meets basic requirements, editors should be wary of SYNTH and OR. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:39, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Um, do you realize that those are both opinion columns and therefore not reliable sources. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:54, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Malik, the reliability of source is not necessarily dependent on how information is delivered (editorial). The first source is an editorial, but it is still hosted by a reliable news organization. Israel and the apartheid analogy is dominated by editorials and opinion pieces (by experts and notable persons of course). See WP:NEWSORG. Mainstream writers and experts have compared numerous Arab governments to the South African apartheid state as well as apartheid-style governments in general. This is notable. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:01, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think anyone here has questioned notability, the problem with the article is inherent WP:COATRACK and WP:POVFORK. Passionless -Talk 23:42, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
::What is this a POV fork of Passion? Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:01, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Women in Arab societies, Racism in the Arab world, and Religious intolerance. Passionless -Talk 01:07, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Malik is absolutely wrong, of course jpost is reliable. any accusations of apartheid on Israel or about others, is an "opinion." So what? If you object that it's Malik's personal opinion again.Chorlseton (talk) 13:59, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Middle East-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:58, 22 March 2011 (UTC):Note: This debate has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:58, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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- I agree; I've added a template taken from that page and updated so that the links to previous AfDs are readily available. There definitely seems to be a bit of a history with this and similar pages. Prioryman (talk) 11:38, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Rename or Merge. At the moment, this article is a bit of a synthesis - it has plenty of sources demonstrating that allegations of apartheid have indeed been made against Arab countries, but few about the phenomenon of 'Arab apartheid' as such, suggesting that collecting these instances into one article may not be justified. I would be more happy with it if the scope were broadened to include non-Arab countries, and it were renamed to something like Apartheid outside South Africa; or alternatively if it were merged into the article Racism in the Arab world. The content here is worth keeping, but not in the way it's currently presented. Robofish (talk) 10:38, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete , per applicant.--Severino (talk) 11:19, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I was not aware that there had been previous pages about Arab apartheid deleted from Wikipedia. The debates are interesting, but they are also ancient history. As far as I can tell, the last of them was deleted in July 2008. The application of the term "apartheid" to the mistreatment of ethnic minorities or majorities by the governing group does date back to about 1990, but as near as I can tell it has only become widely popular since about 2010. I only first heard it used quite recently, I think it was in a Nick Kristof column. The idea caught my eye because it fit with what I already knew about, for example, the abuse of Christians in Egypt, Iraq and Syria. To me, apartheid is a reasonable analogy. In the process of writing this article, I would say that it was a series of hard hitting articles using the phrase "Arab apartheid" by Arab journalist Khaled Abu Toameh beginning in the spring of 2010 that popularized the concept of Arab apartheid. He wrote 2 such articles in 2010 and another just this month. "Apartheid" has been used to accuse Arab regimes of abusing minority groups by such distinguished people as former Canadian Minister of Justice Irwin Cotler, professors George Ayittey, Koigi wa Wamwere and Alan Dershowitz, and by journalists including Nicholas Kristof, Ben-Dror Yemini, Rami Khouri and Irshad Manji. You may agree or disagree with the analogy being made between the way Arab governments treat disfavored groups and apartheid, but denying that the analogy is being made regularly, by distinguished people, in major periodicals (The Economist) and in serious articles and books is like denying that the tide is coming in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by I.Casaubon (talk • contribs) 19:11, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Sure. But the Economist doesn't have a policy called Neutral Point of View.—S Marshall T/C 00:06, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
*The Economist is a reliable source. The title of the article suits the content it is based on. Notable figures are drawing parallels between apartheid policies and Arab governments. This is precisely what Israel and the apartheid analogy revolves around - a long survey of people who claim Israel is/isn't an apartheid state. Wikifan12345 (talk) 01:01, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
-
*If the article is a response to Israel and the apartheid analogy, the content and quality of the sources remain unchallenged. Wikipedia is predicated on not simply neutrality but balance. It is a reasonable to create an article about allegations of Arab apartheid if reliable sources exist to support it. There is even more reason if another article exists (precedent) that includes identical claims. Whether or not the original author has an agenda is simply irrelevant. We should AGF naturally. IMO, I think the title of the article is suspect. Arab is an ethnic and social identity, not a government. We don't have Allegations of Jewish/Turkish/Kurd apartheid. Assuming this AFD is revolved, I would support a speedy move to something like Allegations of apartheid in Arab governments or Muslim governments/nations. Wikifan12345 (talk) 02:15, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- QUESTION? I understood form the notice box that it was permissible to edit the page while this argument goes forward. I have expanded the article (the evidence that Arab Apartheid is a significant idea seems to me extensive and valid, I hope people writing on this page will read the article objectively) I also put links to Accusations of Arab Apartheid on relevant pages. I understood this to be standard practice on Wikipedia. An individual named CJCurrie who has asked that this page be taken down has on March 22 at 23:33 taken all of the links down excepting only the link to the page on Apartheid in Israel. Is this correct behavior? A scholar like George Ayittey who has made accusations that Arab governments in Mauritania and the Sudan practice apartheid against non-Arab Muslim citizens can surely be linked to this page.I.Casaubon (talk) 01:45, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It would be more accurate to say that User:I.Casaubon tagged several articles with links to Accusations of Arab Apartheid and that I subsequently removed these. This is not in any way contrary to policy or past practice, particularly when the article in question is of dubious quality. Readers should also note that I did not delete Ayittey's accusations against Mauritania and Sudan; I only removed a link and changed the wording.
- I didn't realize there was still a link on the Israel page, btw. CJCurrie (talk) 02:22, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete - the individual sections are probably all notable, but connecting them all for being in the Arab world even though they're otherwise unrelated is far too much of a synthesis. Yaksar (let's chat) 03:07, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Please explain why they're not connected.Chorlseton (talk) 13:59, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment LMFAO. Article looks good. If Israel can be accused of apartheid then ti is fun to see the Arabs accused of it. The only thing that should stand in the way of an article is if a source does not connect Arabs with apartheid but only individual countries. From what I have seen, some sources say "Oh noes: Israel apartheid. Oh yeah, well they say Arabs do it, too". That makes me lean towards keep. On second thought is good enough for me. This is just a preliminary search and it shows some biased sources but for sure some RS. It is a topic discussed by a significant amount of independent sources. GNG is fulfilled. Keep an eye on it to make sure it does not become a POV coatrack (same should have been done for the Israel one but editors have tunnel vision). GNG is GNG even if it is just a stub and the garbage is riped out. Cptnono (talk) 04:56, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- "If Israel can be accused of apartheid then ti[sic] is fun to see the Arabs accused of it" is precisely the kind of mentality that makes this topic area a hostile battleground. Tarc (talk) 17:33, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It is funny. If you do not see he humor in it then I don't know what to tell you. But regardless of any mentality or POV: GNG is GNG. Sucks, huh?Cptnono (talk) 08:34, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep FWIW, I agree with a lot of the criticisms of the current version of the article, but I think that the notability of the topic has been established. I think that it would be possible to re-write this to solve the NPOV and SYNTH issues. Qrsdogg (talk) 17:27, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete - A synthesized mess of an attack article, apparently created to serve as some sort of pointy counter-balance to Israeli apartheid, and article still on the hit-list of many, many POV warriors. I really don't see why we allow the continued recreation of the same material under slightly different article titles. Honestly, delete this, salt it, and take the proponents to WP:AE; this disruption has been tolerated long enough. Tarc (talk) 17:33, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep and Expand! Wide noteriety for Arab apartheid (A quick google search shows that too). this is not as TM tries to suggest about "every negative action," but about clear cut apartheid features, and this info about oppression in Arab countries with clear discriminatory practices/laws resembling apartheid is much more facts based than the pseudo [attack article] claims of "apartheid" on democratic Israel fighting off attacks. Expand on: Syria VS oppressed Kurdish minority [22] who are denied basic human rights, and on Gender Apartheid in Arab-Palestine. It is NOT included in 'Racism in Arab World' because it is also about Islamic Apartheid such as FreedomHouse accusing Saudi Arabia of religious apartheid, which is not race based. Moreover this is not charging officially Arab apartheid but citing claims of accusations of Arab Apartheid, fair enough. Disliking a page does NOT constitute an 'attack article."
comment Please provide a valid reason why this should not be stayed on, thank you.Maresi (talk) 17:45, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note Maresi is an account created today...Passionless -Talk 18:40, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note Passionless is baselessly attacking maresi, not to mention his "reliablity" contributions that show a standard anti-Israel bias.Chorlseton (talk) 13:59, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. My position is that all these wp:coatrack (as nomintator puts it best) should be deleted. However, to the extent we have Israel and the apartheid analogy, per WP:NPOV we must have this article. Before anyone jumps all over me with wp:othercrapexists, let me explain. The Israel apartheid runs into the same coatrack and misconstruction that this article does. However, if that article is kept despite those deficiencies and passes the relevant Wikipedia policies, there is very little to distinguish this article from the israel-apartheid article. Thus, this should be kept not due to wp:othercrapexists, but due to wp:gng and wp:npov.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:46, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:NPOV is not a zero-sum game, achieved by simply creating negative content to balance the positive, or in this case balancing a perceived negative article with the creation of another negative article. This approach to editing is generally held to be tendentious and has led to many blocks and bans from past ArbCom cases, both in this topic area and in others. Tarc (talk) 18:10, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - You can always question the content of an article. But the content that are disputed can often be removed or re-written in a better way. I see no reason to delete the article in full. Also I am saying Keep per Brewcewers reasonings which is closest to the truth on this matter.--BabbaQ (talk) 18:35, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Echoing an WP:OTHERCRAP argument by another user is probably not the most beneficial use of a !vote. Tarc (talk) 18:39, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:OTHERCRAP doesnt apply to my valid Keep comment. But good try.--BabbaQ (talk) 18:42, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Since that is precisely what brewcrewer argued...that he sees the same problems with the Israeli article, so if that is kept then this has to be kept as well...yea, it kinda does apply to your argument. Tarc (talk) 18:51, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete - Per Tarc's arguments. NickCT (talk) 19:30, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- To NickCTs comment WP:OTHERCRAP does really apply.--BabbaQ (talk) 19:59, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Further comment I think I should amend my previous comments on this discussion. When I first intervened, I said that Accusations of Arab Apartheid was an attempt to revive the "Allegations of Apartheid" fiasco from a few years ago. It now appears that I was mistaken on this point, and I will withdraw that comment. I will also attempt to provide further context to this discussion as based on past precedent; I hope that my remarks will considered in a fair light by other contributors and by whoever decides to close this debate.
- The "apartheid" debates have a long, though not necessarily a noble, history on Wikipedia. In 2006, the page currently known as Israel and the apartheid analogy was created. There were several attempts to delete the page during the first two years of its history, and I believe that many of these efforts were politically motivated. This notwithstanding, the page remained on the project and a consensus eventually developed that the subject was encyclopedic.
- Let me be very clear on this point: when I say that Israel and the apartheid analogy deals with a subject of encyclopedic merit, I am neither endorsing the analogy nor suggesting that the reality or non-reality of "Israeli apartheid" should be the standard by which the page's suitability should be judged. Rather, the page has encyclopedic merit because there has been an extensive public debate on the subject. There are numerous volumes of academic literature on the subject, former Israeli cabinet ministers such as Yossi Sarid have endorsed the analogy, and Jimmy Carter's Palestine Peace not Apartheid brought the debate into a much wider sphere of discourse. Today, it's unlikely that any serious contributor to the Wikipedia would dispute the suitability of a page on this topic, whatever specific issues they may have with Israel and the apartheid analogy in its current form.
- For the same reason, Wikipedia also has pages on Social apartheid, Social apartheid in Brazil, Gender apartheid, and so forth. These are also controversial and disputed topics, but there's a sufficient body of credible, secondary-source information to justify articles on all of them.
- "Allegations of Apartheid" was a different matter entirely; it was essentially just a list of references to accusations of apartheid against different countries. Many of these references were based on very weak sources, and some were based on passing references in journalistic documents to apartheid-like conditions. It was a terrible entry -- not appropriate as a list page, and not suitable in its own terms. In other words, it was the definition of a coatrack.
- The current page, Accusations of Arab Apartheid, is perhaps less bad in this respect than was "Allegations of Apartheid," but not by terribly much. It's based on a synthesis of various sources, not on sources that address the specific issue of "apartheid" in Arab states. Some of the sources are fairly weak here as well -- I've checked one of the George Attiyey articles referenced in it and discovered that the article mentions the words "Arab apartheid" only in passing, as part of a much longer comment on corruption and factionalism in governments all throughout Africa (see Talk:George Ayittey for details). I've removed the reference from the Ayittey article, as it was patently unsuitable.
- In assessing the suitability of Accusations of Arab Apartheid, the only vital issue is this: is there a significant body of credible, sustained secondary sources (at least some of which should be scholarly) that address the issue of "apartheid in Arab states"? From what I can gather, the answer is "clearly not." There are several accusations made against specific states, but the number of sources looking at "apartheid in Arab states" is much smaller, and most of these would seem to be journalistic articles, often polemical and written for short-term consumption. The debate simply hasn't reached a critical level of discourse to justify this article, nor is it suitable as a "list page" for the individual countries in question.
- It is possible that there's a level of discourse concerning "apartheid" in individual countries (such as Sudan, perhaps) to justify pages for those countries. If so, I will not object to the creation of those pages.
- Some people have suggested that this article provides "balance" to the Israel and the apartheid analogy article. This reasoning is entirely contrary to the purpose of the project and to reliable past practice on this issue.
- I should raise one further objection to this article: its title. Although Israel and the apartheid analogy deals with a very controversial topic, all sensible commentators on the subject will acknowledge that "the State of Israel" and "the Jewish people" are distinct concepts. Although many supporters of Israel regard the phrase "Israeli apartheid" as coded anti-Semitism, it is nonetheless not the same as "Jewish apartheid," which would be recognized by most people on all sides of the Israel-Palestine debate as a far worse phrase.
- The same logic applies to the phrase "Arab apartheid." It's not uncommon for some of Israel's most vocal supporters to refer to "Islamic state apartheid" or perhaps "Arab state apartheid" in describing conditions in other countries. I happen to think that these phrases are often used very cynically and that they imply sweeping, simplistic, and ultimately unjustifiable claims against diverse and multi-faceted societies. However, neither phrase is quite so problematic as "Arab apartheid," which is capable of being read as targeting Arab people generally.
- The specific title of the current page is inherently unsuitable, unless the point is to document instances of the incredibly specious claim that Arab people generally are guilty of "apartheid." (And as such sources would by their very nature represent only a fringe element, one wonders why such a page would be necessary or desireable in the first place.) If this page is retained, which I truly hope is not the case, then at minimum its title should be changed.
- Comments and respectful discourse are welcome. Again, I hope whoever closes this debate will take these arguments into consideration. CJCurrie (talk) 00:58, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I support all that was said, and on a side note, Gender apartheid was changed into a redirect in 2006 and only recently brought back by a single editor. I think that that article should also be changed back into a redirect for all the same reasons. Passionless -Talk 01:51, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete and salt per CJCurrie. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 01:28, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete per CJCurrie and Tarc. --John KB (talk) 03:35, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete and salt as per CJCurrie and Tarc. As CJCurrie says, if there's appropriate material, an article specifically on, say, the Sudanese case can be created. Part of what happened with the Israel and the apartheid analogy article is that it moved from a back-and-forth about the accuracy of the criticism to an article about the debate as a phenomenon in itself. That clearly has not happened here. People making accusations of "Arab apartheid" is insufficient for an article, so Google searches of the phrase are unhelpful. There would need to be appropriate articles about the criticism to avoid this being WP:synth and WP:coatrack. Bondegezou (talk) 08:16, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- All these requests for SALT are ridiculous. So I will pretend that you provided a reason instead of just a meaningless !vote: This article can be deleted per WP:DEL#REASON WP:NOTADVOCATE but notability is shown in a google news archive search with the likes of the Washington Post. So this article should be recreated when it meets our standards. Hopefully by then you guys voting to salt will understand policy and the notability guidelines.Cptnono (talk) 08:39, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep 1) The objectionists here have a history of anti-Israel bias.
2) There are roughly 4,000,000 results on google for 'Arab apartheid.'
It is well sourced.
3) Accusations have been made on both: Individual Arab countries and on the Arab world as a whole.Chorlseton (talk) 13:59, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- You may want to double-check your Google hits. I see only 655 distinct pages on "Google Everything"; and only 20 on "Google Books". --Noleander (talk) 14:22, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, the User:Chorleston account has made fewer than twenty edits. CJCurrie (talk) 17:47, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - There does seem to be the distinct odor of Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point about this article. The sources do appear to be legitimate, but they are rather lightweight. The corresponding Israel article was created only after a President of the United States and a Nobel Laureate made the analogy. Perhaps this article should be deleted, and revived when sources with more gravitas have established notability for this topic? --Noleander (talk) 14:25, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep I agree that it is unfortunate that well-known words for things become used in less appropriate contexts (I am thinking of the word Fascism which really should pertain only to the Italian WWII era political group), but that does not mean that WP can pretend that they are not in wide use. The photograph says it all; it does exist. So the subject is valid; I do not have time for anything other than an assumption that sources exist. I will take Benny and Wikifan, etc's word for it. Anarchangel (talk) 15:36, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- This is quite beside the point. As I've said above, the relevant question is whether or not there's a credible public discourse on the specific subject of "apartheid in Arab states." The sources, which you don't appear to have checked, do not back up this assertion. CJCurrie (talk) 17:47, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep it appears that all is sourced and quite clear that it is as real as 'the other one'. no reason to delete at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Soosim (talk • contribs) 18:18, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep I just added a quote from the book written by Walid Phares. He is a known scholar of Middle East, and he calls the discrimination against Copts, blacks, women an "apartheid" . Also this book by the same author has lots of information about apartheid in Arab world.--Mbz1 (talk) 18:25, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep I don't see how this article is different from the other articles of it's kind. It is a documentation of reality, has good and reliable sources, and the subject is very notable. Broccolo (talk) 19:14, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. This is a textbook example of original research by synthesis; a collection of unrelated quotes stitched together to support an original argument of the existence of "Arab apartheid". The author's approach seems to have been essentially to cherry-pick any book that contains the words "Arab" and "apartheid" in proximity to each other. There is no context and no assessment of whether the assertions made are in any way credible (only one point of view is represented - the accusatory one). It's very obvious that this article has been created as a POV counterpart - or retaliation - for the corresponding one about Israel. Comments like this one make it obvious what is going on with this article. Prioryman (talk) 20:24, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - thanks for the shout-out p-man! (truth is, comments like "that" one just show that things do exist, whether you like them or not. there are dozens of examples of those who say that israel apartheid is nonsense, and there are dozens of examples of those who say that arab apartheid is quite real. they are not "separate but equal", rather, they are intertwined, with both being validly (nice word!) sourced and referenced. Soosim (talk) 06:30, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I think you need to look at Wikipedia:Other stuff exists. The existence of one article doesn't justify the existence of another article. Each article has to stand or fall on its own merits. The problem with the article we're discussing is that it so clearly fails on multiple grounds, most obviously original research by synthesis - as others have pointed out, it's merely a coatrack for a collection of quotes which someone has dug up from Google Books to support a novel argument for a general phenomenon of "Arab apartheid". That is an absurdly broad-brush term anyway - the Arab world covers 21 countries and territories inhabited by 360 million people; it's as absurdly general as "South American apartheid" or "Slavic apartheid". The whole premise of the article appears to be to highlight claims of discrimination in individual countries and extrapolate them to an entire region and ethnic group. That is not only original research, it strikes me as bordering on racism as well. Imagine an antithetical article about Israel, "Accusations of Jewish Apartheid" - that would be equally problematic (I'd vote for its deletion in a heartbeat) and I suspect that those voting to keep this article would not hesitate to call for its speedy deletion. Prioryman (talk) 09:17, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Question to Prioryman. Don't you see anything wrong with the article Israel and the apartheid analogy, and, if you do not what exactly is wrong with the discussed article in your opinion? Maybe, if it is renamed to Arab countries and the apartheid analogy or Arab world and the apartheid analogy, you'd like it better? See, I might agree with you that naming article Accusations of Arab apartheid could look like it is all Arab people who are accused in apartheid, but what is a good name. There's only one Jewish state - Israel, and there are 22 Arab countries that all have apartheid - kind of hard to come up with generic name.--Mbz1 (talk) 16:21, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- As I said above, the existence of one article doesn't justify the existence of another. But let's compare the two anyway (though I should clarify it's not a topic I know much about - I'm commenting only on their quality as articles). Israel and the apartheid analogy describes an issue that has been the subject of high-profile debate among academics and politicians, including entire books on the subject. It discusses arguments pro and con in what looks to me like a fairly neutral way.
- Accusations of Arab Apartheid takes a completely different approach. It assumes (as you appear to do as well) that all instances of discrimination in Arab counties constitute a generic form of "apartheid". However, it never actually makes that case. No source is cited to support that argument, hence the original research problem. Nor is there any indication of a general debate about "apartheid" in the Arab world. Instead, it cobbles together quotes from people using the term "apartheid" rhetorically to refer to discrimination in different countries, arising in different circumstances and involving many different groups in many different countries. It is completely one-sided - it never presents alternative points of view, which fundamentally ignores the NPOV principle. The whole premise of the article, as a quote-mined list of accusations, is incompatible with NPOV.
- To illustrate how silly the premise of the article is, I could quite easily create an article called "Accusations of Slavic Apartheid" covering discrimination by Czechs and Slovaks against Gypsies, Serbs against Albanians, Russians, Ukrainians and Belorussians against Caucasians, and so on. There are plenty of sources that use "apartheid" rhetorically to refer to such discrimination. However, it would plainly be absurd to quote-mine such sources to support an unpublished argument about the existence of a general pattern of "Slavic apartheid". Yes, discrimination exists in various counties and yes, some people have rhetorically called it "apartheid", but those two facts can't be used to present a novel argument that separate issues in different counties can all be described as a general system of "apartheid", as this article tries to do. Prioryman (talk) 09:01, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- a) arab apartheid as a term is used in reliable verifiable sources and references. not made up, no original synthetic research, etc.... b) i promise you, if there were reliable verifiable sources and references for jewish apartheid, it would most certainly be a wiki article (regardless of your personal preference to delete it). Soosim (talk) 09:33, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- someone asserted above that the article accusing Israel of practicing apartheid was only written after Jimmy Carter's book was published. I checked the dates, Cater published in the fall of 2006, the article was written in the spring.
- someone asserted that the series of articles on Arab Apartheid by Khaled Abu Toameh were not reliable because they were published by a think tank. All three in fact appeared in a national newspaper, the Jerusalem Post. They were reprinted widely. I linked to the articles on the Hudson Insititute website since Hudson runs a stable website and despite Israel's prowess in all things computer, the Jerusalem Post has a lousy website. A case of the cobbler's children going barefoot.
- it has also been asserted that the concept of Arab apartheid has not been asserted reliably, only instances in specific countries. I added two sentences with sources making clear that reliable people have asserted that "Arab apartheid" in the sense that major public intellectuals have made claims of apartheid or apartheid-like policies being practiced by Arabs against disadvantaged gorups in many countries.I.Casaubon (talk) 13:34, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, I didn't say that Israel and the Apartheid Analogy predated Carter's book; I said that Carter's book brought the debate concerning "apartheid and Israel" into a broader public discourse. I could add that the publicity accorded to the book finally settled the question of whether or not the article currently titled Israel and the Apartheid Analogy dealt with an encyclopedic subject.
- I hope whoever closes this discussion will realize that most of the "votes" to keep this article (which aren't really votes in the proper sense, but anyway ...) are wide of the mark. The question we should concern ourselves with is not whether "Arab apartheid" or "apartheid in Arab states" exists or does not exist. Likewise, it's not particularly relevant that some authors have used the phrase "Arab apartheid" in published books and articles, and it's certainly not relevant that there's a separate article entitled Israel and the Apartheid Analogy on Wikipedia. The only relevant question is whether the specific concept of "apartheid in Arab states" has itself been the subject of serious scrutiny, at least some of which should be scholarly. The answer, quite plainly, is that it has not.
- As I've said before, I won't object to the creation of articles such as Sudan and the Apartheid Analogy or Saudi Arabia and the Apartheid Analogy (which I see already exists as a redirect), if and only if these concepts have received serious scrutiny, at least some of which must be scholarly. CJCurrie (talk) 20:56, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Professor Alan Dershowitz of Harvard Law School describes "serious problems of real apartheid in Arab and Muslim nations." I.Casaubon (talk) 22:22, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 02:50, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note - this account was only created yesterday and has only three previous edits. Prioryman (talk) 08:10, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note Umm... so... what? And actually, I joined Wikipedia over a week ago.... so... yeah.... AFolkSingersBeard (talk) 09:12, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The list of "Articles for deletion" above is almost completely irrelevant, since so much of the discussion of this topic has taken place in 2010 and 2011. I created the article because Apartheid in the Arab world is a topic that is being widely discussed now. This was not so much the case when these old discussions were held.I.Casaubon (talk) 11:49, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I think it's highly relevant. CJCurrie highlighted above a previous AfD discussion which resulted in the deletion of an article which - though I can't now see it - sounds from the description like it was very similar to this one. The arguments put forward in that discussion are certainly highly relevant. In particular, I'd like to draw your attention to comments of the closing administrator in that discussion:
- The core contention of the delete side is, as I understand it, that a large number of disparate uses of the word "apartheid" in reliable sources do not make the single subject "Allegations of apartheid" a valid subject, and that the collection of these uses into one article linked only by word choice is a violation of WP:OR (and, more specifically, WP:SYNTH). In response, the keep side argues that a great many incidents of allegations of apartheid have been covered by reliable sources, and that there is nothing WP:OR-violating about grouping these worldwide incidences of a phenomenon together in one article. I believe that the delete side did a better job of making its case - one particularly strong question that I believe went unanswered was posted by User:Ceedjee, when he wrote "who are the scholars (here sociologists or political scientists are expected) who studied, as a whole, the allegations of apartheid carried against the different countries or regime around the world ?" This strikes me as an enormously salient issue. Moreover, in going through the references in the article, I was unable to find one whose topic was "Allegations of apartheid". I think this has to be a litmus test: if there isn't a single source (broadly defined to include chapters of larger works and the like) that has its primary subject a topic on which somebody wants to make a Wikipedia article, there have to be alarm bells. It may well be so that the collection of these various allegations together is eminently reasonable, but if that is so why has nobody else, to all evidence, ever so-collected them?
- The same is very much true for this article. It seems to me, on reading that earlier discussion, that you have managed to create a new version of a very controversial article that was ultimately deleted - but unfortunately your version has the same fundamental flaws as the deleted version. Prioryman (talk) 12:09, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- "Prioryman, I clicked on the deletion discussion that you linked to, and I am frankly puzzled that you think them relevant. The topic of those articles was "Accusations of apartheid" or "Apartheid outside South Africa" There was nothing to indicate that they were about Arab Apartheid Why did you bring them up?I.Casaubon (talk) 13:57, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I deleted the box because the articles you had linked to werre actually about topics like "Tourist apartheid in Brazil" Not relevant to the topic of Arab Apartheid.I.Casaubon (talk) 14:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I can only assume that you didn't click on any of the links in the box, otherwise you would have seen that almost all concerned AfDs on a now-deleted article called "Allegations of apartheid". Your article essentially seems to be that old article minus all the non-Arab countries. The arguments against that article are identical, as the quote above shows, to those being made here. Please do not delete others' contributions simply because you do not agree with them. That is not acceptable at all and will get you into trouble. Prioryman (talk) 15:23, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- This is a brand new article about Apartheid in the Arab world. It was provoked by a Kahled abu Toameh article that ran this month. Much of the material is very recent, postdating the articles you link to. You have not answered my question. I have raed the discussions (Not the articles, can they still be accessed?) Question? Why are these old articles relevant, reading the discussions about the articles, I see a great deal of material about accusations of Apartheid in Brazil and France. Not about Arab Apartheid. What do accusations of apartheid in Brazil or France have to do with Arab apartheid?
- It seems the old articles can't be accessed - presumably if they're deleted they go completely and we can't see their histories? I can't comment about Brazil or France, but the descriptions of the article at the centre of the previous AfDs - "Allegations of Apartheid" - make it clear that that article was constructed the same way as this one, i.e. as a collection of quotations to support an original contention of a worldwide phenomenon of "apartheid" in various countries. You have cast the scope of this article more narrowly to cover just the Arab world but it suffers from the same problems identified in the 2008 AfD. When CJCurrie posted a link to that AfD I was struck by how very similar the comments were to those on this article. While this article might not be a direct descendent of the earlier one, it's clear that Wikipedia has faced a very similar issue before, so the previous discussions are highly relevant. Prioryman (talk) 15:35, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- So you are making assertions about how these old articles were "constructed" without having read them.I.Casaubon (talk) 16:08, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- One of them survives as Social apartheid in Brazil and appears to be a reasonable article. It could be a useful model for the improvement of this article on Arab apartheid.I.Casaubon (talk) 16:08, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The facts here are very simple.
- Several ancient articles existed on topics more or less (often far less) similar to this. They were deleted 3 years ago and up. Political conversations change.
- A large number of Arab regimes (Sudan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the palestinian Authority, Mauritania, Bahrain, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan and probably others not yet in the article) have been accused of practicing forms of apartheid.
- The use of the term apartheid has been applied increasingly to these Arab governments in the last 2 years.
- Political conversations frequently discuss the Arab world in much the same way they discuss the West or the Nordic countries The reason is that these culturally coherent areas are often swept by political trends that happen in tandem across a culturally similar area. So we have sentences such as "the wave of pro-democracy protests now sweeping the Arab World." and we have Professor Alan Dershowitz of Harvard Law School writing about "serious problems of real apartheid in Arab and Muslim nations."
- A growing number of journalists, statesmen and scholars have, in recent years, discussed the concept of apartheid in the Arab world It is a concept, not a phrase. I chose the title to state simply that these accusations are being made because I understood wikipedia to require an objective approach to information. it is the concept that is significant. As proven by the fact that it is being widely and increasingly used.
- American University economist George Ayittey: "In Sudan and Mauritania, the Arabs monopolized power and excluded blacks - Arab apartheid."
- Ayittey accused Sudan of "deftly manipulat(ing) Arab solidarity" to carry out policies of apartheid and ethnic cleansing against non-Arabs in Darfur."
- And this month journalist Kahled Abu Toameh published a widely circulated and cited article asking "Where’s the international outcry against Arab apartheid?"
- There is more in the article, and more that I have not had time ot add to the article yet, but you cannot google a phrase Accusations of Arab Apartheid to delegitimize a concept.I.Casaubon (talk) 13:08, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- rename to Arab Apartheid The core concept. This will satisfy the objections expressed by Prioryman and CJCurrie.I.Casaubon (talk) 13:16, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm afraid it doesn't answer my objections. The objection is not to the title of the article, it's to the basic conception of the article. To borrow from the administrator's comments in italics above, a large number of disparate uses of the word "apartheid" in reliable sources do not make the single subject "Allegations of [Arab] apartheid" a valid subject, and ... the collection of these uses into one article linked only by word choice is a violation of WP:OR (and, more specifically, WP:SYNTH). That objection is valid whatever the article is called. Prioryman (talk) 15:28, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- compromise my fella wiki-wikis...deleting the article is not any sort of compromise. there is sufficiently clear material, well sourced by well known people to have this article exist. i understand someone might not like it, but that is not what this is about. 'just the facts', please. put up the information, source it reliably and let it be. i still don't see any reason for all of this hesitation to let it stand. the time spent twisting and turning every WP:this and that could've been used to just editing the article and making it WP:PERFECT.Soosim (talk) 16:03, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I'm still waiting for someone on the "keep" side to address the core issue: that this article is simply a coatrack for a series of disparate sources that use the words "Arab apartheid" (or the words "Arab" and "apartheid" close together) in passing. There appear to be few, if any, sources that actually consider the subject in any detail -- there's certainly not a significant body of credible secondary sources (at least some of which must be scholarly) that address the issue of "apartheid in Arab states."
- On another matter, I'd like to request that whoever closes this discussion be someone who's (i) familiar with past "apartheid" debates on Wikipedia, and (ii) not aligned with either side in those discussions. CJCurrie (talk) 18:53, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I am continuing to add material on Arab apartheid from Arab commentators, Arab academics, think tanks, and more. A lot of ink is being spilled on this topic.I.Casaubon (talk) 21:05, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Unfortunately you are not addressing the fundamental flaws that have been pointed out on this page - you are merely adding to the pile of cherry-picked quotations, from a very biased starting point (I mean, "Apartheid road in Saudi Arabia"? - come on). Prioryman (talk) 21:41, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The sources discussing the specific concept of Arab apartheid are very solid. As are the many descriptions of countries such at Saudi Arabia where Shia, Christians or some other despised group live under a separate set of laws. Legal Christian residents of Saudi Arabia cannot hold public services of worship or build a church. I find the idea of a highway system that directs non-Muslims to a separate road offensive in the extreme. And an exact parallel to the buses, schools and drinking fountains that America used to have for blacks.I.Casaubon (talk) 21:52, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- This is completely irrelevent to the present discussion. As I've said before, I'm not opposed to the creation of a Saudi Arabia and the Apartheid Analogy page (beyond the current redirect) if there are enough valid sources to back it up, but that's not the present issue. I'd ask you to read my objections again more carefully, please. CJCurrie (talk) 23:16, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Per I.Casaubon.
Comment As you can see in the following Arab apartheid was already charged in the 1980s by a Mauritanian Organization FLAM and publicized a leaflet about it.
Africa after the Cold War: the changing perspectives on security - Pages 126-127
Adebayo Oyebade, Abiodun Alao - 1998 - 228 pages - Preview
This ethnic crisis is invariably between the Arabs and the black population. Although the conflict had been on for some time, it was only in the late 1980s that it came into the open. In 1984, the Force de Liberation Africaine de Mauritanians (FLAM) was formed, and in June 1986, it published the "Manifesto of the Oppressed Black Mauritanians."
The manifesto denounced what it called "Mauritanian apartheid" and the " Arabization of the Mauritanian society."... The Black/Arab ethnic conflict inside Mauritania has influenced the neighboring states of Mali and Senegal. The largely black state of Senegal [23]
Sudan: Volume 3, Issue 3 - Pax Sudani Network - 1993
Moreover, they have committed to a program of de-Africanization through forced Arabization and Isalmization of the people in South Sudan, the Nuba Mountains and southern Blue Nile regions.
Had the African Sudanese succumbed to this policy of Arabism and Islamism, Islamic apartheid would have prevailed in the Dusan said Elias N. Wakoson. In 1955, a group of Southern Sudanese revolted against the system... they have maintained a passive stance on the Arab apartheid and enslavement of black Africans. [24]
Negative ethnicity: from bias to genocide - Page 152
Koigi wa Wamwere - 2003 - 207 pages
When racial apartheid fell in South Africa, Arab apartheid against the black southerners did not in Sudan. Arab insen- sitivity to the suffering of Africans in the South has led to an ongoing war that sends Arab militias from Khartoum ...By 1997 Moorish apartheid in Mauritania had driven 55000 black Africans into Senegal, Mali, and surrounding countries. Judging by the numbers slaughtered, black, Arab, and Moorish apartheids have killed more Africans than white.[25]
Africa betrayed - Page 124
George B. N. Ayittey - 1992 - 412 pages
ARAB APARTHEID In some parts of Africa there is a dominant Islam which allows practically no room for other ... by Arabs against black Africans has become a growing problem in Africa, especially in Mauritania, Sudan, and Tanzania.[26]
Indigenous African institutions
George B. N. Ayittey - Transnational Publishers, 1991 - 547 pages - Page 29
Arab apartheid reigns supreme in Mauritania and Sudan. In Mauritania, blacks have no political power and cannot vote. Like their counterparts in South Africa , they are persecuted and discriminated against by Arab masters. [27]
Africa in chaos - Page 50
George B. N. Ayittey - 1999 - 416 pages - Preview
In Sudan and Mauritania, Arabs held power and blacks were excluded (Arab apartheid).. [28]
Suggestion
Maybe merge with accusation on Israel by creating a page "Accusations of apartheid in the Middle East."--Doogielien (talk) 01:43, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Sigh ... this account has fewer than ten edits. CJCurrie (talk) 01:58, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- Keep Sorry to be so late to the party, but I think this one's a definite keeper. There are oppo ppl listed along with Maloney whose work is not even as notable, yet they are not contested. Let's not confuse "notability" with "notoriety." Given what oppo ppl do for a living, they often work very hard at staying off the radar, so you're not going to find as much documentation of them personally as you would for some of the campaigns they serve. ~
