Talk:Greek Orthodox Church

Roman orthodox

The term "greek orthodox" is not as in-use as this article leads people to believe, why was my edit reverted? Akhshartag (talk) 21:28, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

what is Roman Orthodox? 174.101.111.113 (talk) 00:40, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 2 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. Also OP has been blocked as a sockpuppet.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:58, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

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Greek Orthodox Church → Greek Orthodoxy – The article about the Greek Orthodox Church lacks clarity, primarily due to its name. It's important to note that Greek Orthodoxy isn't a singular church entity. This term stems from the organizational structure of Orthodoxy, which consists of several independent churches. While some of these churches, though not all, share commonalities like using the Greek language and adhering to various traditions that distinguish them from other Orthodox traditions such as Russian, Bulgarian, or Serbian Orthodoxy. These distinctions can be observed in aspects like attire, liturgy, hierarchy, and more. For instance, articles on items like the klobuk, mandya, or metropolitan bishop regularly highlight differences between Greek, Russian, and/or Slavic traditions.

Greek Orthodoxy can refer to either this shared tradition or the collective group of these churches. It's essential to recognize that Greek Orthodoxy predates the modern independent country of Greece or the national Church of Greece, which emerged in the 1830s as a result of Greek independence. The national Church of Greece is actually a small component of Greek Orthodoxy. Kpratter (talk) 10:14, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support. This article isn't about an "orthodox church", but a tradition within Orthodoxy. Srnec (talk) 20:32, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Support per nominator. Killuminator (talk) 20:39, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is the WP:COMMONNAME. I understand the point of the nomination, but as the article is written the current title is the best. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:27, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Editing would be needed in the body to fit new proposed title. If middle ground, I would make the title plural: Greek Orthodox Churches, yet this would be a different matter.--Coquidragon (talk) 16:20, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Distinction from Roman Orthodox Churches

There are a number of formerly Greek Orthodox Churches, which went back into communion with the Roman Catholic Church, of which Eastern Orthodoxy had split off since the Great Schism. These Churches, sometimes called "united with Rome", have retained most of their Greek Orthodox rituals. I don't know, but I guess there must be some who use Greek as their liturgical language. Having this in mind, does anyone know if all of the Orthodox Churches "united with Rome" are excluded from the umbrella category "Greek Orthodox Church", with all its 3 definitions? If so, this should be added to the lead, as it is a major criterion of distinction from Latin (Roman Catholic) Christianity subordinate to the Pope in Rome. Thanks, Arminden (talk) 17:01, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

@Arminden: Despite your comment being a bit biased ("Greek Orthodox Churches, which went back into communion with the Roman Catholic Church, of which Eastern Orthodoxy had split off since the Great Schism"), I would assume the answer to your question would be that Greek Catholic Churches (self-procraimed Greek Orthodox Churches in union with Rome) could fall under the second category: "any of several independent churches within the worldwide communion of (Eastern) Orthodox Christianity that retain the use of the Greek language in formal ecclesiastical settings," thinking of them more as "Unrecognised churches" / "Churches that are neither recognised nor fully Eastern Orthodox." Now, a follow up point would be if these Churches should be listed in Organization of the Eastern Orthodox Church#Unrecognised churches. Since Wikipedia is all about sourcing, you would need to find a credible source that lists them as such. Without it, I would defer to the editors of these pages. Good question though, despite not being WP:POV.--Coquidragon (talk) 17:21, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Add the word "term" to the title

Requested move 6 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 06:28, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

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Greek Orthodox Church → Greek Orthodox Church (term) – There is a tag and lede content on the page indicating it is about a term, just as with Roman Catholic (term) and Catholic (term). There's also already a disambiguation page with the same title as this article, which makes things confusing. I made the move earlier but it was reverted. I felt it met the three criteria for an undiscussed move. natemup (talk) 00:15, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. The article can be considered a "broad-concept article" as described at WP:DABCONCEPT. It should be kept as is. The dab page can also be helpful to readers of Wikipedia, so it can also stand as is. The Banner talk 07:36, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

  No one proposed deleting or even changing the disambiguation. Moreover, none of the pages described in the help article you cited are about terms. They are about concepts (hence the non-italic titles and no references to being terms). This page has a tag and content indicating it is about a term, to distinguish it from the other pages with similar names. That should be reflected in the title. natemup (talk) 09:01, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

  There were two prior move-discussions related to this article. The first (Talk:Greek Orthodox Church#Requested move 2 October 2023) ended in no consensus. The second (Talk:Greek Orthodox Church (disambiguation)#Requested move 20 January 2023) ended with the result not to move. The Banner talk 00:56, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose as unnecessary. Srnec (talk) 01:10, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. I also oppose treating it as a mere "term" in italics. Internal administrative divisions notwithstanding, there has been a distinctly Greek ecclesiastical tradition within the Orthodox communion for centuries, and there needs to be an article to reflect that. ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ (talk) 11:05, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  I completely agree, but this article currently is explicitly about a term (and the proposal to make it about something else failed). The title should reflect that. natemup (talk) 16:30, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit war / pov-pushing

I noticed a disagreement between two editors about Albanian Orthodox Church and Albanian Orthodox Archdiocese in America. It would help when both parties give clear, independent, reliable sources for their claims.

In short, I want to see sources for the following:

1. the Albanian Orthodox Church is an autocephalous church. The given sources are not convincing of that fact. What I am looking for is specific sources about the church becoming autocephalous.
2. that the Albanian Orthodox Church is also named the Greek Albanian Orthodox Church in mainstream sources.
3. that the Albanian Orthodox Church is also named the Greek Albanian Orthodox Church only by irredentist circles, as claimed by one editor.
4. that the language used in (some of the) churches is a deciding factor for their status as part of the Greek Orthodox Church or not.

I hope to see the sources soon. The Banner talk 13:46, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Some of the answers you are looking for can be found in the article of the Albanian_Orthodox_Church.

A simple Google search, and you can see how much the name "Greek Albanian Orthodox Church" is used.

The churches in minority areas are all under the jurisdiction of the Albanian Church. The Greek Church has no jurisdiction whatsoever in Albania.

Another absurdity is the Albanian Orthodox Diocese of America , which is still part of the article by the way.

It is quite ironic that the Albanian Church, which declared its autocephaly out of fear of the irredentism of Greece and the Greek Church, you find here under the latter's umbrella. HokutoKen (talk) 14:22, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I am asking for sources, not search it yourself. The Banner talk 14:32, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

@The Banner:, several WP:RS scholarly sources covering either the efforts to establish the Albanian Orthodox Church by Fan Noli, achieving autocephaly in 1937 or post communist reconstitution and controversies are: Nikodemos Anagnostopoulos p.68 [1], Bernd Jürgen Fischer p. 53 [2], Agata Biernat p. 15. [3], Nicholas Pano p. 233. [4]. The example of the Albanian Orthodox Church has similarities to the present Ukrainian Orthodox Church – Kyiv Patriarchate who after decades recently achieved autocephaly from the Ecumenical Patriarch. Calling that church "Russian" on Wikipedia is POVish to say the least, even though there may be sources, reliable ones too that do. It is independent, part of its own Orthodox tradition. As is Albanian Orthodoxy, with an independent church for almost a century, whose adherents strove to establish and reestablish it as its own institution and religious tradition within the wider global framework of Orthodoxy and not as a branch of another national church.Resnjari (talk) 01:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

@Resnjari already provided very good sources. I wanted to add that the Church of Albania has its own website and there they have a history section.[5] To summarize, the Albanian Orthodox Church declared autocephaly at the Congress of Berat in 1922 and the Albanian Church started to act autocephalously since then and had its autocephaly recognized by the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 1937. In fact, if you look at the Wikipedia article on autocephaly, you can see a list there that shows that both the Church of Greece and the Orthodox Church of Albania are equal "Autocephalous Archbishoprics and Metropoles". The same story holds on every single Wikipedia article related to the Orthodox church, so we're basically arguing over established facts here. The Greek Orthodox Church and the Albanian Orthodox Church are equals and neither is part of the other. Claiming otherwise is equivalent to claiming that "Albania is a part of Greece" or something similar; we would not even consider such a ridiculous statement, why are we doing it here? Finally, regarding the language, that is regulated by Article 7 (Neni 7) of the Albanian Orthodox Church. Albanian is the official language of the Church, but other languages are allowed to be used in special circumstances, it has nothing to do with the Churches being administered by another Orthodox Church.[6] Uniacademic (talk) 09:30, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I assumed it would be for the better that way, without being influenced by both sides. Sorry, still learning. HokutoKen (talk) 11:27, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

@The Banner:, @Uniacademic:, @HokutoKen:, in the introduction it gives 3 sets of definitions about what the article scope is. The use of the word Greek to denote Orthodoxy in a wide sense, the use of Greek in formal ecclesiastical settings by several independent churches and the church of Greece. With the first definition, one could find reliable sources here or there for several of the present Orthodox churches being prefixed with the word Greek Orthodox in front of it. The 2 sources which were used to add the Albanian church to this page call the Albanian church "Greek Orthodox", hence in terms of the first definition and say nothing about liturgy. Would several other Orthodox churches also get included in the Churches list, even in a historical sense if they have the word Greek in front of it? And if not, why is the independent Albanian Orthodox Church a special case based on a few seldom sources? Another POV highlight is the inclusion of the Albanian Orthodox Diocese of America in that list, unsourced too. They never have called their Diocese "Greek" or used Greek in their liturgy. That's some serious POV pushing. Bishop Fan Noli who established it as part of wider efforts for an independent Albanian Orthodoxy, did so due to concerns over the Hellenisation of Orthodox Albanians. Moreover, the Diocese itself is made up of the Orthodox American Albanian community who vehemently opposed the Ecumenical Patriarch installing a person with Greek citizenship as head of the reconstituted Albanian Orthodox Church, post communism.Resnjari (talk) 00:43, 22 May 2024 (UTC)