Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ottawa Science Fiction Society

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:50, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ottawa Science Fiction Society[edit]

Ottawa Science Fiction Society (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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unremarkable fan club, orphaned article, does not meet WP:ORG, lacks significant coverage in multiple3rd party sources. Supplied references are primary sources, mention the organization only in passing or are simple "community calendar" type articles mentioning an upcoming event. RadioFan (talk) 22:45, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep

As this group is 35 years old, most of its history took place before the WWW became important enough for most media to post and archive articles on-line. Thus references to OSFS, and its activities are lost to on-line referencing. Add to that, the city lost one of its two major newspapers the Ottawa Journal, halving the potential archives that can be referenced. Additionally, the newspaper that came into being in 1987, the Ottawa Sun is like the New York Post -- not concerned about literary societies, and is more about Sports and promoting the Conservative cause.

Out of the Ottawa Science Fiction Society grew many things. A number of its members went on to because well known in their fields, Fantasy writers Charles de Lint, Galad Elflandsson, Charles R. Saunders; SF Writers like Robert J. Sawyer, Spider Robinson, Sansoucy Walker (http://www.sfcanada.ca/autumn2005/sansoucymemoriam.htm) and artists like Den Beauvais (http://www.denbeauvais.com/) who worked on the Aliens Comic Book, Aputik (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0306730/) and Laura Herring (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2665116/), Jim Cleland (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2655451/) and Janet L. Hetherington.

From this organization's ranks also came the people who ran events like the World Fantasy Convention in 1984, the Furry Convention (C-ACE), and SF Conventions Pinekone, & CAN-CON.

If OSFS is not worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia, then all of these groups should be removed as well LASFS, BASFA, Birmingham Science Fiction Group, ISFiC, NESFA, Northwest Science Fiction Society, Orange County Science Fiction Club, Philadelphia Science Fiction Society.

Of course, the worst part of this is that I have spend all this time justifying the existence of this article that I didn't write for a group I haven't been a member of for decades rather than adding all of this information to the entry itself.

farrellj (talk) 01:57, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment First off, dont take it personally. Your dedication to this organization is appreciated but all articles, including this one, must meet notability guidelines. Unfortunately without reliable sources, it's difficult to demonstration notability. Without sources the above is all original research. As for the other articles you mention, let's focus on this one.--RadioFan (talk) 03:54, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete unless better third party sources turn up. Reading the entry reinforces the impression that this group isn't notable: events include parties at people's homes, meetings followed by conversations at Harvey's... at best this would merit mention at an entry for Maplecon, although whether a Maplecon entry would pass muster is another matter. Hairhorn (talk) 14:47, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I guess I shouldn't have wandered down memory lane, since some of you take except to that and use it as a justification to delete my article. I had based my entry on the LASFS entry, and it mentioned things that were unique to that club. OSFS has many contributions to the science fiction field in Canada, and they alone should be ground to keep the entry alive. And it's true what farrellj says that there is a dearth of electronically accessible places for citation, and the ones that are there, you just brush off. If that is the policy of Wikipedia, not just a personal interpretation, then Wikipedia will be limited to covering things that have happened in the 21 century almost exclusively. But I don't think that is the intent of this wonderful resource.

The aim of Wikipedia's sourcing rules is to make sure that it's content is relevant and verifiable. The former is always going to be a subjective thing, while the latter is somewhat more objective, but RadoiFan's and Hairhorn's make the it seem that a source such as a newspaper that has been published for a 165 years is questionable. Further more, the quick deletion attempt doesn't give the article a chance to develop at all. I noticed comments in the history section of people who are going to work on improving the volume of citations in the article. So I don't think that the current rush to judgement is justified. Nhaflinger (talk) 17:51, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There's no requirement that sources be online. If "165 years" is a reference to The Ottawa Citizen you'll have to come up with something more than a mention, which is all that appears in the sole Citizen source given in the entry. It reads "The event [ie, Maplecon] is organized by Ottawa Fandom Inc., which includes members of the Ottawa Science Fiction Society, the local Star Trek club and, the area's comic collectors club". The society is not mentioned again in the article. Notability requires "significant coverage," this is nothing more than a mention. If there are more articles, please go ahead and dig them up. Hairhorn (talk) 19:07, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep - a SF club that has such notable members is likely to be notable, but I'd like better sourcing. I have met Spider Robinson and Chales de Lint. Bearian (talk) 22:11, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • keep - does need improvement, though. The link in the article's discussion page yields another five or six Ottawa Citizen citations. Unfortunately, they're scanned images. Worth mining for more info soon. Henry Troup (talk) 03:10, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment the shame is that we cant seem to focus on meeting the guidelines of Wikipedia here and keep turning focus on individual editors. Organizations of any size can be shown to be notable as long as there are sufficient reliable sources covering them. Either there are or there aren't sources available. There are lots of people here who feel its notable but there hasn't been much backing that up. I suspect the result here is going to be keep, if just to avoid controversy. I hope the closing admin considers Wikipedia guidelines very very carefully. At this point I would support userfying the article until sufficient sources are located.--RadioFan (talk) 17:13, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep - but needs much better sourcing. Many of the fans participating in this discussion are missing the distinction we make here between mere mentions (even in notable and reliable sources), and substantial coverage of an organization. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:37, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Shawn in Montreal.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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