Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of words having different meanings in Spain and Latin America (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No Consensus - A subject with some obvious notability per many keeps below. A title that could be improved. And many who disagree. This AfD however provides a window into a more concerning issue. The creator of this article User:Korovamilkbar is no longer contributing to WP. This article was the last contribution. From the day of the 1st contribution (June 2009) to the day of the last (Oct 2009) this editor recieved, as far as I can tell ZERO real encouragement or mentoring on how to become a better contributor. Apart from the boilerplate, sterile welcome we post on talk pages, no one reached out to this editor. All this editor got for the interest they were trying to give WP was four deletion notices. Deletion is an essential mechanism for WP, but so are contributors, because without them there would be nothing to delete.--Mike Cline (talk) 13:18, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

List of words having different meanings in Spain and Latin America (2nd nomination)[edit]

List of words having different meanings in Spain and Latin America (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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WP:OR, see Talk:List of words having different meanings in Spain and Latin America IANVS (talk | cont) 13:43, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep Notable, sources are available. Needs fixing, not deleting  Chzz  ►  13:56, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment see also: previous deletion discussion  Chzz  ►  13:58, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The point is that Spain vs. Latin America is not the best choice for comparision. There are probably more differences between Argentine and Mexican Spanish, for exapmple, than between one of them and Spanish from Spain. Furthermore, there may be not a single "difference" between Spanish from Spain and "all Latin American variations" at once. Non-notable comparative article then. Salut, --IANVS (talk | cont) 14:06, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's an argument to move the article to a new name and expand it, not to delete it. Regards SWM (SoWhy[on]Mobile) 14:39, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment That would seem to be an argument for the creation of more articles, rather than the removal of this one. Chzz  ►  14:11, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I guess a new article comparing multiple versions of Spanish would be far more adecuate. I insist on the title (and purpose) of this article: there may be 'not a single "difference" between "Latin American Spanish" (as a whole) v. "Spanish from Spain" as a whole. Salut, --IANVS (talk | cont) 14:27, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: I have informed the article author, and all the users who participated in the previous deletion discussion— Chzz  ►  14:37, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete because I think there are inherent difficulties in the title/topic: not only, as the nominator pointed out, are there great differences between Latin-American Spanishes, but even between Spanish Spanishes. Drmies (talk) 14:40, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Pure trivia. MickMacNee (talk) 14:54, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep (Similar argument as in the previous AFD) Sure there are thousands, just like in English, and there are regional differences within South America, just as there are in the US or the UK. Stick to entries which are well referenced. like coger [1]. Just as important with respect to the Spanish language as with respect to the English language. A portion of this is covered in Spanish profanity, but there are non obscene differences, like a "tortilla" being a small cake in Spain, or a Mexican corn flatbread well known in the U.S.[2]. The article could be expanded to show words with different meanings in Spain, Mexico and Argentina, as the previous reference enumerates them. Requiring that a reference explicitly drawes distinctions in a systematic way between these three countries heads off the reductionist complaint that we would have to tabulate every Spanish speaking country. The fact that reference books have discussed in detail the differences in word meaning between Spaiin and Latin America, or between Spain and between regions of Latin America, proves that the article need not be original research or indiscriminate information. Edison (talk) 14:58, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Although not pure trivia at all, this could be an almost impossible article, comparing 20+ countries and further regionalisms. We might need a rather new approach. Perhaps this Summary of Spanish Variants Dictionaries can be helpful. Salut, --IANVS (talk | cont) 15:07, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:10, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:11, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Curse Gene93k, the robot that always seems to make an edit conflict for me. As with the last list, completely unsourced. I think that the previous list had more words with vulgar meanings on it than this one does, but the main focus seems to be that there are some words that are okay in Spain but offensive in Argentina. Regarding profanity in Spanish, it's (snicker, snicker) been done. I'm all in favor of making the distinction between "conjugation of the verb 'visitar'" and a "conjugal visit", but things (snicker, snicker) like that have to refer to sources. Mandsford 15:16, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I was going to recommend a merge to Spanish dialects and varieties, because that page mentions that there are vocabulary differences but does not illustrate any. Since there are no sources cited on this page, however, it's not at all clear that these are appropriate illustrations for that page. In fact, many of the items cited are minor differences in senses or slang usage (e.g. pelotas, cachete, fresa) and therefore probably not appropriate for Spanish dialects and varieties. Cnilep (talk) 17:02, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Not sourced, indiscriminate. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 17:14, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Not an article but just some data put together by WP:OR. WP should have an article on differences in Spanish between different countries. But that needs to be based on published sources that discuss it, not put together from raw data. Wolfview (talk) 17:48, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
See Spanish dialects and varieties. Cnilep (talk) 17:53, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The main problem is that it needs extensive expansion.Obviously every one here can be documented by disctionaries, and should be--dictionaries are secondary sources, not raw data. There are actually books about the topic, to say nothing of dozens (more likely hundreds ) of academic and popular articles. Of the thousands of books devoted to Spanish usage (See worldCat and [4] for lists), many are devoted to particular countries or topics, but most make comparisons. Some are devoted primarily to doing that. (The only one I personally know is Cassell's beyond the dictionary in Spanish; a handbook of everyday usage, which I recommend as entertaining as well as informative--it explains key differences country by country. Wikitionary ought to be fine for individual words, but a general listing seems out of their current scope. Looking at esWk, they seem very careless about including this sort of material or dialectical differences in general. But that they aren't doing their job is not our immediate concern DGG ( talk ) 21:04, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete- it's really not notable enough- and belongs in the Spanish Encyclopedia, not the American Encyclopedia. --Rockstonetalk to me! 21:34, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment English Wikipedia is absolutely not an "American Encyclopaedia". It is an Encyclopaedia that welcomes any and all notable topics, and the nationality of the topic is utterly irrelevant, per WP:NPOV. Please, read about Wikipedia:Systemic bias.  Chzz  ►  22:51, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per WP:NOTDIRECTORY and WP:NOTDICTIONARY. Armbrust Talk Contribs 21:52, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment. This is not an argument. Several commentators have detailed why a list of words of this nature is not dictionary-like, and neither you nor Tavix has given any suggestion of how this article violates WP:NAD or WP:NOT#DICDEF. Bongomatic 09:20, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Obviously notable topic (covered widely in reliable sources). Clearly not dictionary-like in nature (name a dictionary that lists separately words with different meanings in different places?). Precedent exists (see List of words having different meanings in British and American English: A–L and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lists of American and British words). Language of the words and language of the sources are irrelevant for notability purposes (and many of the sources are in English, per DGG above). There is no foundation for "delete" opinions in policy or guidelines. Bongomatic 22:50, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Bongomatic and DGG. I consider myself slightly on the deletionist side of things, but I still find merit in this topic and believe it should be kept. As Bongo alluded to, it's comparable to the differences in American and British English, which we have several articles on. DGG also mentioned that there were complete books written on this topic, which I don't doubt. A quick Google books search brings up a nice chapter on this. Killiondude (talk) 23:29, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment If this is going to be kept, it has to be moved to an article along the lines of "List of words having different meaning in Spanish (regional/national variants)" The current title is impracticable, as per above. Salut, --IANVS (talk | cont) 23:35, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Wikipedia is not a dictionary, in English o en Español for that matter. Tavix |  Talk  23:47, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    See above comment. Bongomatic 09:20, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Spain-related deletion discussions. -- Tavix |  Talk  23:48, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Arguments in favor of deletion are either arguments for renaming, fixing and/or expanding the article (which AFD is not for) or consist entirely of WP:VAGUEWAVE (without having read or understood the policies in question - since an article can, if the topic is encyclopedic (like this one is), legitimately be about dictionary-related subjects) or WP:IDONTLIKEIT without further explanation. Regards SWM (SoWhy[on]Mobile) 06:47, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Enough with the patronisation. this list is total trivia right now, and it always will be, however it is fixed or expanded in the future. I find the claims that whole books have been written about this particular list to be absurd. All the evidence form keepers offered to this effect appears to be arguing for keeping Spanish dialects and varieties, which is not the subject of this Afd. The subject of this Afd is a list of words which have different meanings. a.k.a. a giant bucket of trivia. MickMacNee (talk) 13:52, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You consider lexical differences between variants of one of the most important Indoeuropean languages "a giant bucket of trivia" ? You are kidding, right? --Cyclopiatalk 13:01, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've got zero issue calling this list a bucket of trivia, because that's what it is. It's your choice to interpret what I said in these idiotic and hystrionic terms, but I really could give a rat's ass. Pure brainless coffee table garbage is what this 'list' is, and if you want to paint it as the dead sea scrolls that's your lookout. MickMacNee (talk) 19:13, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry for you. Your knee-jerk reaction laced with personal attacks says more about you than anything else I could say. Sad. --Cyclopiatalk 13:04, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep How is this any different from List of words having different meanings in British and American English? — Michael J 21:25, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • That would be a good page to transwiki to Wiktionary as well. / edg ☺ ☭ 17:47, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Potentially giant lists of words should probably be handled by Wiktionary—they aren't encyclopedia articles in the sense that someone will sit and read them through, and per WP:LIST they probably necessitate target articles for most of the included words, many or most of which would be WP:DICDEF. Despite the popularity (in AfD at least) of DICDEF articles, packing Wikipedia with such isn't really making an encyclopedia.
    Without considering the need for target articles, this is neither a proper WP:LIST since by design it contains much analysis, nor a proper article since it is currently contains much WP:OR (almost as if the List format were a way to evade WP:V requirements). / edg ☺ ☭ 17:47, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This an interesting and informative article. Why didn't you also put the article List of words having different meanings in American and British English up for deletion ? This article is no different. A bit of work is needed but it deserves a chance, even though it might now seem unmanageable and wp:OR. Maashatra11 (talk) 18:37, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. First, thank you, Maashatra11, for adding a link to an online Spanish-English dictionary to the page. Using that dictionary, though, you can see that the information on the page is incorrect. The first item in the list, for example, says that almacén means "warehouse" in Spain but "department store" in Argentina. The dictionary linked to, however, says, "almacén. masculine noun. 1. warehouse (depósito). also: (grandes) almacenes -> department store." It does not say that these meanings are specific to Spain or Argentina. On the other hand, the definition continues: "2. grocery store (de alimentos) (Andes, RP)" Those parentheticals indicate that this sense is used in the Andes and the Rio Plata regions. I won't make corrections now pending the outcome of this discussion, but would suggest that if the page is kept all of its content will need to be checked and probably changed or removed. Note that my !vote to delete is above. This comment is not intended to stack the debate. Cnilep (talk) 16:17, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - In principle, perfectly discriminate, encyclopedic list of the lexical differences between fundamental variants of one of the most widespread Indoeuropean languages. In practice, it has several problems but none that can't be solved by editing, so deletion policy requires us to keep. DGG, Killiondude, Bongomatic shown that there are sources and that the list is sourceable. People telling this is "pure trivia" say more about their respect for linguistics than about the article. --Cyclopiatalk 13:01, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - This is a violation of WP:NOTDIC once removed. Though, this is really more than a stand-alone list in the traditional sense, so it should be judged under notability criteria for articles. If the topic is notable, the title should be changed and it should be a discussion about how Spanish from Spain and elsehwere has diverged, not a list. And even if made into or considered a true stand-alone list, it is not useful and does not satisfy any of the reasons for a a list per WP:LISTPURP. As a true list, it would be a copyright violation (or nearly so) lifting a list somebody else compiled or original research. Novaseminary (talk) 16:20, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The number of differences between different dialects of Spanish is enormous, and this list is indiscrminate since it considers Latin America as a bloc. Furthermore, defining words is a function of dictionaries, not encyclopedias, and this (and any similar list) does not belong on Wikipedia per WP:NOT#DIR. Abductive (reasoning) 03:18, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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