Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of recorded inscriptions in ancient Greek mythology

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. It's impossible to create a list of every instance of writing or inscription in every piece of Greek literature, theatre, or mythology regardless of how many sources the list has. WP:SALAT applies here. Krakatoa Katie 07:46, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

List of recorded inscriptions in ancient Greek mythology[edit]

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Newly created page copying some list content that was deleted elsewhere as being off-topic. Ill-defined topic; hopeless unsalvageable WP:OR, with a misleading title and a completely false off-topic lead. This list is not about "recorded incriptions", but about fictional acts of writing in Greek mythology. As such it is basically a random list (the actual number of references to writing in ancient Greek literature is much larger and more or less open-ended). As it is now, it is a standalone list without a parent article and no sourced coverage of the topic as such. No secondary sources are mentioned that discuss the role of fictional acts of writing in Greek myth. The lead sentence with the OR claim that "Inscriptions are an important documentary tool for understanding the history, culture and society of the ancient world" is patently nonsensical (it would make sense if the article were about actual historic inscriptions, but it has nothing at all to do with the fictional writings contained in the actual list). All in all, this page is a mess and utterly useless. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:43, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This article is a list of recorded by ancient authors mythological inscriptions mentioned in Greek mythology. They are described as recounted by ancient authors. As the name implies they are mythological. They are not actual historic inscriptions as User:Future Perfect at Sunrise falsely claims.

Ancient authors mentioned in this article include: Homer, Apollodorus, Hyginus, Euripides and will include in the future recounts by Pliny. Herodotus, Plutarch and more.

References of the article include:

Homer, Iliad (Iliad vi.155–203) Hom. Il. 6.156
Hyginus. Fabulae 105
Bibliotheca, Epitome e.5.15

Euripides, Iphigenia in Tauris 725

...and is far from complete yet.

Pages that link to this article:

...more to follow

I have contributed several parts to the deleted by User:Future Perfect at Sunrise old article myself:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, therefore it,s not WP:OR as claimed by User:Future Perfect at Sunrise.

An alternative title could be: List of mythological inscriptions recounted in ancient Greek mythology

I didn't find an appropriate article in Wikipedia to fit in this list. I think it would be useful and I see no reason why it should not be included in Wikipedia articles. Odysses (₪) 00:28, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Information could be included in larger articles on the history of writing, but does not make for an article on its own. Also seems to violate "no original research" since individual examples are thrown together to make a point. BayShrimp (talk) 23:44, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This list was already deleted from an other article on the history of writing. Do you have in mind a specific article on the history of writing in which to be included? This article will grow eventually (I have another 5 or 6 examples to include) and will hardly fit into another larger article.

For the "individual examples" see comments by Odysseus1479 below. Odysses (₪) 10:32, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or Rename as per above Odysses (₪) 00:38, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Rename & Keep: Per nom. the name and lead are misleading, but I think the topic is worthy of a list article, notable trivia so to speak. For the title, although the suggested alternative is an improvement I think the word inscription itself is too narrow, suggesting monuments and such, and overall it’s rather long. How about List of texts mentioned in Greek mythology? The OR / editorializing in the lead definitely has to go, particularly since it tends to exacerbate the conflation of real and legendary writings, but I disagree with User:BayShrimp’s second point above: it’s the nature of a list to be a collection of things “thrown together” (but, one would hope, neatly labelled and arranged). The characteristic they have in common is pretty self-evident IMO, but it would help if some non-primary sources could be found to reference a rewritten lead. Disclaimer: Despite the similarity of our handles I have no connection to User:Odysses.—Odysseus 1479 02:03, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's a good idea to remove the intoductory phrase; in fact I've just removed it. (Deleted text is shown in strikeout but it will go).

The proposed title, List of texts mentioned in Greek mythology is a better alternative. Odysses (₪) 10:15, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This still leaves us with the problem that there is no well-sourced, non-OR coverage that establishes the topic. We don't do list articles unless either (a) the entries in the list are themselves independently notable (i.e. there are likely to be individual articles on each of the various instances of writing), or (b) the general topic ("written texts mentioned in Greek myths") is a topic of well-defined academic interest and has substantive, well-sourced encyclopedic coverage, over and above the mere listing of the individual instances. Please provide reliable sourcing from good secondary sources that establish "acts of writing mentioned in ancient Greek mythology and literature" as a topic of general academic interest. Then write an actual article about that general topic, based on good sources. Then, and only then, can we think about having a list to illustrate it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:23, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is merely a list of mythological examples of writing recounted by ancient authors. Not of an actual historic tablet like the Rosetta Stone in which to include "well-defined academic interest". I'm sorry the previous introduction confused you, but it's now simplified. It's a List-Class Greek mythology article. What "well-defined academic interest" would you find in articles like, List of Oceanids, List of the kings of Ancient Epirus? In the case of Bellerophon I have in mind some references in the works by Wiseman, 1955, Burkett, 1984 and Bosset, 1958 that could be added later. Odysses (₪) 12:05, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and rename--and probably much expand, because there are likely to be several thousand worth including. (I'm not sure what the inclusion criterion should be--more than just mention of the God, something that serves a source for legendary information about them, probably.). A rather naïve first effort at something we ought to be doing. It would be easy to say there is little value in the present list, but it should serveto alert us to an area we need to work on. DGG ( talk ) 08:44, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Huh? Can you please clarify? If there are "likely to be several thousand worth including", how could it ever be a manageable list? If you are not sure what the inclusion criterion should be, how can you possibly be of the opinion that it would be a manageable list? And I frankly have no idea what you are talking about with "mention of the God" or "source for legendary information about them". The things collected here are not inscriptions that mention gods, and they do not serve as sources of information about gods. If you think there is something here that we "ought to be doing", can you please say more precisely what it is that we ought to be doing, and what the present page has to do with it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:07, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This may serve to illustrate how confusing the article is in its current state.—Odysseus 1479 09:19, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, I have another 5-6 mythological examples of writing to include in this list. Hopefully other users would add more in order to expand the list. Maybe this is what DGG had in mind. Odysses (₪) 11:29, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep (corrected) I see I interpreted it a little differently than it was probably intended, due to the confusing title. The appropriate title is likelt to be "Writing in classical mythology and legend" , and it will include those mentioned and more. It's a perfectly valid topic. , as would be almost any X in Greek mythology where there are some examples to discuss. The particular case of the secret writing in the Odyssey has a very large secondary literature because of its implication of whether the composition of Homer came before the origin of Greek writing. DGG ( talk ) 14:00, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- That's an argument for having an article on "Writing in Homer". It has little or nothing to do with "Greek mythology", and the other examples listed have nothing to do with it. We still have no sourced and validated perspective that justifies a list article on this set of items. And whether it's an article on "writing in Homer" or one on "writing in mythology", who is going to actually write it? You, DGG? Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:24, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  - DGG has a point that any article that includes a note on Homer gains validity. I must point out that it's beyond the scope of this list-article to expand Homer's "folded tablet" recount, except perhaps to add another footnote or two. This article intends to simply add a few more examples of use of writing in Mythology by ancient writers. Before 1960's, i.e. before the decipherment of Linear B, the use of writing would be considered an anachronism. But let's go ahead and accept the use of writing, not in alphabetic but in other systems such as Linear B, Mycenaean Greek etc. in pre-Homeric antiquity and mythology as a possible practice. I must repeat that the tile is misleading, therefore it's a question of renaming the existing article rather than deleting a "perfectly valid topic" as DGG has put it. I am open to an alternative title and I find both of the above proposed titles as good alternatives. Odysses (₪) 23:23, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The other examples are from the legendary Homeric period in which Homer is set, but not from Homer. DGG ( talk ) 00:01, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, they are not "from the legendary Homeric period". They are all from the classical or much later periods, and their value in discussing the Homeric problem you mentioned is zero – unless, of course, somebody were to bring forward some non-OR sourced coverage that creates a connection between these, at last. Unfortunately, the sole author of the page has so far not even grasped the need for such coverage, and I'm evidently not getting through to him, as much as I try to explain. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:58, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So, to answer DGGs question, in the '"example" when "a letter was sent to Palamedes from Priam" you are saying that this event took place in "the classical or much later periods"? But, I always thought that Palamedes and Priam were mythological characters from the Trojan War as recounted by Homer and other later authors. Odysses (₪) 17:25, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oh for crying out loud. That is a literary, fictionalized account written by a Roman-age author. Do you have any reliable source discussing the significance of this fictional literary reference with respect to the actual legendary period? No, of course you haven't. You haven't even begun to grasp what WP:NOR means. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:48, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, definitely. Most examples date back to the Trojan War or before, where some form of written communication was in common use. Besides, all neighbouring countries like Egyptians, Hittites and Assyrians, they all had their own writing systems at that time. However, this article treats those examples of events as mythical. Odysses (₪) 00:32, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion just continues to demonstrate the untenable and confused WP:OR nature of this whole page. "This article treats", "this article intends", "let's go ahead and accept..." – In other words: you, Odysses, have just put it into your head to do things this way. Connecting these things together under this umbrella is just your personal speculation, based on nothing in the literature. And, frankly, the idea that some passing remarks in classical and post-classical authors (Hyginus and the Bibliotheca are from the Roman era, for crying out loud) are in some way related to writing practices in the actual "mythic" time period of the Homeric legends is rather absurd. Even with Homer, you are pushing this personal favourite idea of yours, that the references to writing reflect a memory of actual (pre-alphabetic) writing practices of the Mycenean age, quite against the prevailing opinion of actual scholarship, which for the most part sees them as either dim reflections of non-Greek writing practices in Homer's own time, or of the beginning alphabetic Greek writing (by those authors who consider Homer to be contemporary with that). This page is still a mess, and will continue to be a mess in the absence of a definition of the topic that is based in the literature and serious encyclopedic coverage and not just in your personal whim. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:55, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But of course Hyginus and Apollodorus are from the Roman era. However, Apollodorus provides a comprehensive summary of traditional Greek mythology and heroic legends, "the most valuable mythographical work that has come down from ancient times" according to Aubrey Diller. And this article is about Greek mythology is it not?

The article now includes references such as:

Bellerophon Talets from the Mycenaean World? A Tale of Seven Bronze Hinges by Ione Mylonas Shear, at Cambridge Journals Online
Homer and the Folded Wooden Tablets by Massimo Perna
The Orientalizing Revolution: Near Eastern Influence on Greek Culture in the Early Archaic Age. M. E. Pinder and Walter Burkert. Cambridge: Harvard University Press.
Nagy, Gregory (2010). Homer: the Preclassic. Berkeley: University of California Press.
A New Companion to Homer, Ian Morris, Barry B. Powell, BRILL, 1997

The above references are considered as "reliable sources" by some scholars on Greek mythology and heroic legends. And yet, you, Future Perfect at Sunrise, still don't see any reliable source in it. Just for the record, this article started on 21:10, 26 June 2013‎ and only 33 minutes later you proposed it for deletion: 21:43, 26 June 2013‎. You didn't give much chance for this article to grow. Did you? Odysses (₪) 12:35, 29 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:56, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:56, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. I'm with FPaS on this. Odysses seems to be under the impression that all references to writing in "mythological" narratives date to some immemorial period before the accepted time of the development of writing among the Greeks, whereas the overwhelming probability is that most, if not all, of them are simply anachronisms introduced into the narratives at relatively late date. If one discounts that tendentious underpinning, the list becomes a purposeless collection of trivia—like a list of all mentions of plate armour in medieval and Renaissance accounts of ancient Greece and Rome. Taken merely as a stand-alone list, this runs afoul of WP:SALAT; taken as an attempt to compile examples that illustrate a point, it runs afoul of WP:NOR. Deor (talk) 13:04, 29 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have no doubt that you are with FPaS . Obviously you have no idea about the references I've mentioned above, particularly on Walter Burkert and his Orientalizing Revolution in which he discusses the near Eastern influence on Greek culture in the early archaic Age, since he opposes the use of writing in the Mycenaean world. You don't even know Plato's saying "you ought to learn from Homer" (Plato, Cratylus, 391d). Yet, you are well informed on medieval and Renaissance armour, which however is of no interest to this Greek mytholgy topic. Odysses (₪) 23:23, 30 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete after (partial) merge with Archaic Greece / Mycenaean Greece or Iliad. Reason for merging with the former is, using Odysses' words, "the near Eastern influence on Greek culture in the early archaic Age" or Walter Burkert's view on Mycenean contacts with the East. Reason for merging with Iliad might be the existence of homeric passage alone. In any case, the rest of the listed narratives come from later epochs thus they are entirely unrelated to both Iliad and the aforementioned near eastern influence. And do not forget FPaS' argument, i.e. the absence of secondary sources that discuss the role of fictional acts of writing in Greek mythology.

Therefore I agree with Deor that this list is either OR or a collection of loosely connected trivia. Odysses, I admit that we might have misunderstood the purpose of this list, so please clarify. Best regards.--Dipa1965 (talk) 21:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.