Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Hertz (fan)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. ChrisO 22:10, 4 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

John Hertz (fan)[edit]

Delete - fails WP:BIO. Claims to fame are being a Hugo nominated fan writer (had he won that would establish notability, but not a nomination) and Regency dance enthusiast. His book on the dance is self-published and his fanwriting anthologies are also self-published. Otto4711 14:30, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science fiction-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 15:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral-- I'm not trying to nit-pick, but fans play a far more crucial rôle in science-fiction than in most other genres. Is this the case here? Rhinoracer 15:28, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I'm inclined to say that fanfiction is pretty much non-notable by definition. I'm not seeing reliable sources to support such an article either. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 15:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Fan writing is not fanfiction, the two are completely distinct concepts. As Rhinoracer suggests, fan writing is considered a very important activity in science fiction fandom, see Hugo Award for Best Fan Writer for more background. Being nominated for the award is more than adequate accolade (in fact, expecting him to have received it would be setting the bar extremely high -- the award has not been won by anyone other than David Langford since 1988) to merit this article, and he has been nominated twice. He has also won a less well-known award, and has been fan guest of honour at major science fiction conventions. Reliable sources are [1] [2] (yes, these are SF con sources, but for information about SF personalities I believe they should be considered reliable). JulesH 16:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Are there sources that consist of something more than biographical blurbs written for convention programs, that for all we know are based on information that Hertz himself gave them? One of the sources isn't even the final draft of the program. I am not, by the way, questioning the factual accuracy of anything in the article. I am questioning his notability under WP:BIO. Otto4711 19:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In order to write a biography, what more sources do we need than biographical ones? And it's generally true that biographies are based on information supplied by the subject in most cases. The con programmers would likely edit out anything in the submitted bio they saw as self-aggrandisement, so I think we can view these as reliable sources. As for notability per WP:BIO, I would suggest he should be kept under "the person has received significant recognized awards or honors." Being nominated for a Hugo is a significant honour, as is being invited to a major convention as a guest of honour. JulesH 08:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Winning a Hugo is a significant honor. As for being guest of honor at a convention, I question that this would meet WP:BIO. If a source is based entirely on information that's provided by the subject of the source it is not independent. Otto4711 12:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Winning a Hugo is an extremely high honour. The shortlists normally only run to 4 or 5 candidates (as was the case for this category in both of the years Hertz was nominated). There are only two people who have won this particular award in the last twenty years. Therefore I think being nominated for it is more than adequate. This is not to mention his other award, the 2003 Forrest Ackerman Big Heart award - a lesser award, surely, but still worth mentioning. JulesH 15:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not really seeing any reliable sources attesting to the notability of that award either. Otto4711 15:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's included by Locus Magazine in their listing of SF awards. It's not a particularly important one, but it still means something, as an award given by a man who is considered by many to have been one of the most important figures in the science fiction fan community for a very long time. The biggest problem with finding sources concerning it are that there are other awards that share the same name. JulesH 18:49, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So he's been nominated for a fan level category of an important award but didn't win and has won an award that you characterize as "not particularly important." I don't see how this gets him over the notability threshhold. Again, I'm not disputing the factual accuracy of anything in the article. Otto4711 13:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, but add a picture. --24.154.173.243 18:18, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment if kept, move to John Hertz - it's a two entry disambig page. Could just as easily link to John D. Hertz with otheruses, negating the need for the nearly empty disambig. MrZaius^talk 14:05, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Clearly notable in SF alone. The Hugo nominatiosn (both effectivly saying that he is one of the 5 best fan writers in the world that year) alone establish that. Here are some examples:
- He has written regularly for Science Fiction Chronicle [3] and [4];
- He is listed as a reviwwer for Emerald City [5];
- Other fans started a fuind to pay his expendes to the 2007 WorldCon in Japan [6];
- He wrote the program for the 42nd WorldCon (1984) [7]
- He writes regular reviews for Collecting Science Fiction Books [8];
- He was nominated for the 2007 Hugo for Best fan writer. The Official statement [9] notes that "The Hugo Awards are science fiction's highest honor for professional and fan work." There are only 5 nominees.
- His regular colum in Chronicle (formerly The Science fiction Chronicle) is noted in Locus, [10] which calls this a "Trade Journal", not a "fanzine".
- Locus considers his nomination for the 2005 fan writer Hugo worth mentioning [11].
- Nomination for 2005 Hugo covered by Geek monthly.com [12]
- His cataloging work on SF for the University of CValifornia is reported on by Fiat Lux, a University publication [13]
- A Google search on "John Hertz Science fiction -Wikipedia" gets 164,000 hits [14]

I trust the above will be sufficient. DES ^(talk) 18:07, 4 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.