Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heris Tower

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Konak, İzmir. The Merge target was kind of a toss-up but the article doesn't mention either the architect or the developer so I thought it was a better fit for the city. However Konak, İzmir doesn't have a second on skyscrapers and this isn't even the tallest in the city so some work needs to be done with this Merge. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:49, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Heris Tower[edit]

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Fails WP:GNG. Kadı Message 11:00, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

~~Oppose~~ Heris Tower is the 7th tallest building in the city as well as the tallest building built in the 2000s. (Central Data Bank (talk) 11:22, 1 October 2022 (UTC))[reply]

@Central Data Bank, please show the independent and reliable sources about the article. Best, Kadı Message 11:38, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Kadı, Emporis' page on Heris Tower. As per Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 43, Emporis is considered a reliable source. Not to mention Heris Tower is not a "random" building in Izmir as it held the title for the second tallest building in the city for 13 years. However, the article should be expanded and re-written. I can get to that in the next few days. Cheers. (Central Data Bank (talk) 11:51, 1 October 2022 (UTC))[reply]

The source contains very short information about the building. This is not adequate for to decide to keep it. Kadı Message 11:54, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also: WP:SIGCOV. Kadı Message 11:57, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Citing WP:SIGCOV is not really of help here because your reasoning seems to be subjective as to what is notable, I have stated the very clear reason for Heris Tower's notability as well as given a reliable source of info on the building. After-all, this isn't the Empire State Building so naturally its not going to contain as much info. Instead of nominating it in AfD, you can tag it as needing improvement. I assume this nomination was done in good faith, so I have inquired for a third opinion. (Central Data Bank (talk) 13:40, 1 October 2022 (UTC))[reply]

WP:SIGCOV is precisely relevant here, because a list of statistics about a subject is not significant coverage of it. Such a citation can be useful to add precise dertails to an article, but only if there are other, substantial referencesto establish notability.

Central, you appear to have the idea that it is possible for the notability of a subject to be based on what it is (or does etc). In the world outside, that is of course true, but in Wikipedia-land that is not true. The notability of a subject, as Wikipedia uses the word, does not depend at all on what the subject is or does or has done, but entirely on what has been independently published about the subject. Of course what the subject is or does has an effect on how likely people are to write about it, but it is the coverage that is key, not the subject itself. ColinFine (talk) 15:45, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, I stand corrected. I revoke my opposition to its deletion. (Central Data Bank (talk) 16:30, 1 October 2022 (UTC))[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Architecture, Asia, Europe, and Turkey. Kadı Message 11:00, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delete So its main claim to notability is that it was once the second-tallest building in Izmir? I don't believe that's enough. Maproom (talk) 13:52, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Before expanding the article, just focus on finding and citing sources in the article. They may be in Hungarian, in which case, please provide translations of enough to make it clear that they include substantial coverage. JesseW, the juggling janitor 14:02, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why would they be in Hungarian? ColinFine (talk) 16:03, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not that Hungarian. More like my stomach is complaining in hungerian; it wants some turkey. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:45, 2 October 2022 (UTC) [reply]

Comment per JesseW, the juggling janitor@Central Data Bank: some reliable sources about the building:

This article from 2004 states Heris Tower as one of the 3 biggest plazas in izmir. And out of those 3 Heris Tower is the biggest with a capacity of 600.
The building is part of the case-study analysis in this research paper. (in Turkish)
This [research paper] confirms that as of 2014 the building was one of only 9 high-rises in Izmir.
This Yeni Asır article confirms that it is the 15th tallest building in Izmir as of mid 2021.
This biographical Hürriyet article about the guy who made the building.
Another article about the same guy this time in Habertürk.
An interview article about the same guy also in Habertürk.
Another interview Article about the guy in Son Söz.
this Son Söz article confirms that the building is 124 meters tall and has 26 floors. The article is criticising how they kept making tall buildings in Izmir and that there is no zoning laws which keeps the tall buildings confined to specific districts and argues that such law is needed.

Other sources:

This page wich may be a primary source states that it is "Izmir's first high-rise contemporary business center", may not be reliable for notability purposes but can be used as a reliable source for information in the article.
Came across many establishments addressed at the building, some of them quite important like consulate of the Republic of Ireland.

One big source that I did not check was the print Turkish Newspaper Archives such as the Cumhuriyet, Milliyet archives. There is a considerable likelihood that there is information to be found in those and other newspapers published in the years leading up to the construction and around when it was finished in 2001. Would be good if someone with access to the archives could scan.

I think the most prominent claims to notability is that it is the biggest(#1) capacity business plaza in Izmir at least through 2004, and have not found anything that states that it is no longer the biggest capacity presently. And the other claim of notability is this towers place in the history of skyscrapers in Izmir, as the first in a series of buildings that would come to define the skyline of Izmir, having historical and architectural importance.

If this article is still not kept at the closing of this discussion, then I think it should be at least redirected not deleted, perhaps to the businessman Selim Gökdemir (the guy who made the building) I came across substantial coverage on him as seen above and there is likely more when searched without the source needing to also cover "Heris Tower" in it. Selim Gökdemir is also notable in another way as he was involved in some capacity in the affairs surrounding FETÖ which has been covered in in reliable and significant sources such as this Milliyet article here.--Gazozlu (talk) 11:24, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Gazozlu, All of the sources you have been given only list the Tower's name and give very very short info. Not adequate for WP:SIGCOV. Kadı Message 16:06, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Its status as Izmirs first skyscraper is well documented across multiple reliable third-party sources. Also its status as the largest capacity business plaza in Izmir is documented in a reliable source. These are strong indicators that there is likely more coverage elsewhere because these sources got their information from somewhere and you can use this information to do further research in the historical newspaper archives of late 1990's early 2000's. Another good starting point for further research would be looking up the sources that have been cited in those research papers. Regarding WP:SIGCOV, SIGCOV is only one of the ways "A topic is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article" Gazozlu (talk) 20:20, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I started the page Selim Gökdemir so merging to there is now an option.--Gazozlu (talk) 22:03, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to Selim Gökdemir, I had not voted yet while waiting for further sources, but i'll just vote now in case this closes while i'm away. I will change my vote to Keep if someone can find more coverage in those places I mentioned above. There is definently more, in fact I am sure because this source: Colliers International(Colliers), 2008. Turkey Real Estate Market Review: 1st half 2008, 39-40, is about the building but I have not been able to access it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gazozlu (talk • contribs) 14:44, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 13:09, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted in trwiki. Kadı Message 08:29, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Although in the Turkish deletion discussion did not adequately address any of the existing topics are notable about the tower. Gazozlu (talk) 08:48, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to either Konak, İzmir or Selim Gökdemir per WP:ATD. Not independtely notable, as it fails WP:SIGCOV.4meter4 (talk) 16:37, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting as there is some opinion to Merge parts of this article but you offered 4 different options. Is there a preferred target?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:51, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - In my view the tower being (verifiably in multiple reliable sources): the tallest building in izmir for a while, the first skyscraper of the city, and the biggest business plaza of the city as of 2003 are significant enough to keep the article so my preference is to keep the article. If it is still to be merged then I think it's best merged into Konak, İzmir into a whole new section about the skyscrapers in that district of which this tower will be one of, so that will be a bit of work.--Gazozlu (talk) 17:54, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Totally agree with Maproom. Being the seventh tallest building in İzmir, or even previously the second tallest, really is not remarkable enough for a standalone article. Nwhyte (talk) 19:40, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.