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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Merge into Poway synagogue shooting, Westminster Seminary California and Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Seems like the question here is whether the articles that discuss the Poway synagogue shooting + a few other sources are giving enough detailed information to satisfy WP:GNG criteria on the congregation. Some people are citing "not inherited" but that does not explicitly address the suitability of the sources in general. There are some concerns that much of the information on the congregation is more about the denomination than the church which haven't been addressed, and the numerous quotes here certainly do not give an impression to the contrary. Seeing as Westminster Seminary California is often mentioned as the existing article on the college the church is associated with and and Orthodox Presbyterian Church as the existing article for the denomination denomination, it seems like a merger to these pages might be most appropriate to satisfy the emerging consensus that the church itself isn't notable enough for an article, but also to allow people to copy material from the page history in other articles where it may be useful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk • contribs) 08:55, 18 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Escondido Orthodox Presbyterian Church[edit]

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Escondido Orthodox Presbyterian Church (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Not a notable local church. Notability is WP:NOTINHERITED from the Poway synagogue shooting. StAnselm (talk) 21:31, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 21:48, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Escondido_Orthodox_Presbyterian_ChurchCAPTAIN RAJU(T) 21:48, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • In fact, when sufficient national attention is drawn to a previously non-notable congregation by a connection with a prominent person or event, it can become notable. See, for example, Trinity United Church of Christ, Wasilla Bible Church, Tree of Life – Or L'Simcha Congregation. Some congregations earn fame, others have it thrust upon them.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:51, 2 May 2019 (UTC)(page creator)[reply]
  • Delete There is nothing to suggest that the church had any connection to the attack, and aside from that attack, it is a completely non-notable local church. Just because a church has one notable (or notorious) member does not make the church itself notable. -- MelanieN (talk) 22:14, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Unlike the congregations mentioned by E.M.Gregory this was not itself part of a notable event (and I'll note that Trinity United is/was notable BEFORE it was part of the 2008 election judging by the sourcing in that article). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:16, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • In fact, Wasilla Bible Church is a very close parallel. It came to the attention of national media Sarah Palin was a member, and like Escondido Orthodox Presbyterian, was part of a small denomination that most Americans were not familiar with.E.M.Gregory (talk) 02:04, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and Note that contrary to assumptions made by editors above, today, in the Washington Post and Christian Post articles to which the page is sourced, serious scholars and pastors make a direct connection between the theological ideas taught in this Orthodox Presbyterian Church and in other theologically conservative denominations, ideas imbibed and misinterpreted but, nevertheless, theoNews logical tropes that the shooter learned in church. The articles quote antisemitic passages from the shooter's manifesto. In the Washington Post article, traditionalist theologians speak with deep concern about the extent to which traditional Christian theolgyy is liable to antisemitic interpretations of the type that can lead to violence. I would not have started a page on a church that a criminal just happened to attend. I suggest that editors and Nom read the Washington Post article: The alleged synagogue shooter was a churchgoer who talked Christian theology, raising tough questions for evangelical pastors and grapple with the concerns expressed in it. Also per WP:RAPID. E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:30, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but that more properly concerns the Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination rather than this particular congregation. The scholars are not talking about "the theological ideas taught in this Orthodox Presbyterian Church", but in the denomination. StAnselm (talk) 23:36, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Terry Mattingly "It’s crucial to find out, of course, what h(the shooter) learned during his many hours in the pews at Escondido Orthodox Presbyterian Church.... Here is the key question at this point, as I see it: Was there an online website (a specific writer, even) that twisted Calvinist doctrines into the form that Earnest blended into a radicalized, violent white nationalism that embraced some things that he heard at church, while rejecting others?" E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:13, 3 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete There's nothing about this local church that suggests notability beyond an event involving one of its members. That event already has an article, where the church is already mentioned as part of recent edits that link Christian theology to the crime [1]. While I might suggest redirect in similar cases, in this case we need to avoid the appearance of suggesting that this specific church is responsible for, or in any way purposefully involved in, the crime, as that would (among other problems) be a misreading of what the sources say. Redirecting the church name to the crime might give that impression, so for the sake of our readers we should delete without keeping a redirect. Bakazaka (talk) 23:33, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Except that Trueman does not mention "Escondido". StAnselm (talk) 01:55, 3 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Neither do he and others limit the conversation to the OPC, they are discussing Reformed churches as a group. User:StAnselm, I have moved the material off this page; I am happy to leave it as a page about a small church. Feel free to remove material that you feel does not belong on the page of the individual congregation.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:16, 3 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • This material needs to be somewhere. Or readers will want to know something about this church - and they will expect to find an article; I certainly expected to find one. I'm open to suggestions. We could have a short article about the congregation. And cover the burgeoning conversation about the complexities of the influence of old-time theological antisemitism on the page about the shooting. Thoughts? E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:58, 3 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Here's a thought: No. Cover it in context in the event article. Teach the Controversy is not a Wikipedia policy. Bakazaka (talk) 01:04, 3 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • coverage of the shooting and shooter's theological assertions have been moved to page on the event.E.M.Gregory (talk) 10:56, 3 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:HEY, this is now a short, NPOV, reliably sourced article about a small church that has gotten national news coverage.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:18, 5 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If you're going to use WP:HEY like that, then it no longer has any meaning. No, the church is still not notable. StAnselm (talk) 04:38, 5 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge with Westminster Seminary California, which is only a small college. The article says that the church meets in the college chapel, so that there is clearly a close connection. Indeed, I would speculate that the congregation includes a considerable number of staff and students, no doubt with some members of the public. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:48, 5 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep notable church.PE65000 (talk) 11:23, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge per Peterkingiron, also add redirect.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 19:16, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Some editors seem to have formed opinions without examining the sources in the article, and have even made comments about a source without carefully reading the source they are commenting on. There has been a good deal of coverage of this congregation, and, because the shooter survived the event, Escondido Orthodox Presbyterian will be getting more attention during the trial. A.Jacobin (talk) 14:27, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds like WP: CRYSTAL. I note that at this point the alleged shooter himself doesn't even have an article. StAnselm (talk) 19:34, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • He doesn't have a page because it is our practice NOT to create pages for shooters, but, rather, to created pages for shootings.E.M.Gregory (talk) 02:04, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nom's original argument, WP:NOTINHERITED does not hold up because no one argues to keep simple because a notorious person was a member, rather, the argument for keeping is that an event has led to WP:SIGCOV of this congregation in the national media.E.M.Gregory (talk) 02:04, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - this church is known for one event WP:EVENTCRITERIA with no lasting effect WP:LASTING, WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE and the church itself wasn't even connected to the event, just one member - "Wikipedia is not a news source: it takes more than just routine news reports about a single event or topic to constitute significant coverage" - there is no significant coverage of the Escondido Orthodox Presbyterian Church itself - not notable, therefore, delete - Epinoia (talk) 03:22, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Inaccurate. This church was certainly connected, coverage of church in relation to event was not "trivial". It is far too soon to know whether coverage of the congregation will continue, see WP:RAPID. INDEPTH coverage here:
- Comment - notability is inherited from the event - WP:NOTINHERIT - the church itself is not notable - Epinoia (talk) 17:04, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My argument is that these sources meet WP:SIGCOV because they do not simply mention the article in the context of the event. Note that there are sources on the Pastor, that we can source a fair amount of information about the congregation, and that the sources are exploring the link between attendance at this church by the perp and the fact that he became a shooter, whose manifesto is disturbingly rooted in New Testament texts.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:38, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relevant (magazine): "in the past, evangelical leaders were able to put some distance between themselves and their radicalized acolytes. But the lengthy manifesto posted by John Earnest, the alleged shooter, allowed for no such wiggle room. He is a violent antisemite, a devout evangelical, and those two identities were, for him, intertwined... Earnest’s church and his parents were quick to condemn the attacks... But a quote OPC Reverend Mika Edmondson gave to the Washington Post was even more revealing: '[Earnest was radicalized into white nationalism in the very midst of our church,' said Edmonson. 'We can’t pretend as though we didn’t have some responsibility for him.'Theologically, Edmondson is correct. It would be unfair to hold a church accountable every time one of their members committed a crime, but when the crime is as steeped in theological understanding as Earnest’s allegedly is, a reckoning is due.' ] I do understand that many perople, Christian, Jewish and secular, are uncomfortable with mentioning a specific church in this way. Comments above reflect this WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT attitude. But when the sources meet WP:GNG, we keep article that we JUSTDONTLIKE.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:24, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Sounds like a case of WP:ILIKEIT - Epinoia (talk) 20:09, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, the emphasis is on the denomination. When Edmonson says "our church" he means the OPC. StAnselm (talk) 21:05, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The article is specifically about the about reaction of "Earnest’s church," the shooter's church, in condemning the attack. That's pretty specific. It is, as you say, also about the denomination, which is why it seems appropriate to REDIRECT to the Seminary where it meets, a Seminary tat is closely affiliated with the Orthodox Presbyterian denomination. We do not expunge or censor history, we record it.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:24, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This would be massively undue weight for that article, which is rather thin. (What it needs is a discussion of the Escondido Theology. The OPC article would be a better place. StAnselm (talk) 01:47, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, "Escondido Theology" is just Andrew Sandlin's name for the Two kingdoms doctrine. It is certainly connected to WSC; I don't know if we have a reliable source connecting it to EOPC. StAnselm (talk) 02:16, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • An additional source, in a discussion of the meaning of Revelation 21:24-16 in his 2010 book Living in God's Two Kingdoms: A Biblical Vision for Christianity and Culture Crossway Books, (David VanDrunen draws on a sermon given at Escondido by the the congregations pastor (who has been with the congregation since it was founded) [2] . This a yet another source on the church, unrelated to the shooter. I can add it either to the page if we keep it, or to the page where we redirect it.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:35, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep there are now enough sources to keep the article - As a brief article about a notable church; I am willing to leave the theological discussion off the page. Good faith efforts to find a merge target have been stymied by deletion of material from Westminster Seminary California and from Poway synagogue shooting, although this church is linked from those pages. My argument is simply that this church meets WP:GNG.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:57, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • KEEP meets WP:GNG. I don't know where the discussions about the Christian aspects of the shooter's antisemitism belongs, but perhaps Antisemitism in Christianity would be the place to hash out the discussion about the theological aspects of his motivation. That, however, is separate form the fact that sourcing meets our usual WP:GNG standards for keeping an article.WaterwaysGuy (talk) 14:45, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge into Poway synagogue shooting. This independent article clearly fails on WP:INHERITORG grounds, which reads "An organization is not notable merely because a notable person or event was associated with it." All the sources that even have a chance of establishing notability are really about the shooting, and the stuff that's not about the shooting is far too thin to support an article. - GretLomborg (talk) 17:57, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
However, a source does not have to be entirely dedicated to a topic, to contain and be considered WP:SIGCOV of that topic. Many of the sources you dismiss in fact contain WP:SIGCOV of this congregation. And the coverage of this church continues:
World (magazine), May 9, 2019: ‘Terrifying mystery’; How can Christians grapple with a church member becoming a mass shooter? by Jamie Dean. — Preceding unsigned comment added by E.M.Gregory (talk • contribs)
Even so, I think the article still fails due to lack of WP:SUSTAINED coverage (which is more obvious when viewed through the lens of of the related WP:BLP1E criteria, which can be easily applied to an organization by analogy). - GretLomborg (talk) 04:13, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Coverage has been WP:SUSTAINED sustained in the two weeks since the the shooting. The future is unknowable, which is why SUSTAINED does not apply prospectively. In this case, obviously, there will almost certainly be a trail. And, therefore, discussion will almost certainly continue.E.M.Gregory (talk) 04:37, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, this is not sustained coverage. This is a magazine sending a reporter along to a church the Sunday after an incident. StAnselm (talk) 06:56, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, as we both know, SUSTAINED, does not apply here since we are not discussing an event. We are discussing a church.E.M.Gregory (talk) 09:50, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's incorrect, WP:SUSTAINED is in WP:N and clearly talks about things besides events, and is part of the general guidelines. To have it otherwise would be pretty nonsensical. - GretLomborg (talk) 13:28, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My error. But please see WP:RAPID. and NOTE that at this pint all that we can know is that in the two weeks since the event this church has had in depth coverage daily.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:21, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My suggestion to merge is entirely consistent with WP:RAPID: "There may be alternatives to deletion, such as merging..." - GretLomborg (talk) 18:16, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, bd2412 T 00:35, 11 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want to sound like a broken record, but these references say nothing about Escondido's theology, but only of the OPC in general. StAnselm (talk) 09:49, 17 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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