Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Charlie Zelenoff

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Although a fair case can be presented for that the person has verifiably fought in a boxing match, and that that there is one source which covers the person (this one) beyond mere result tables, the consensus still appears to be against keeping the article. The talk here about the subject also appears to be largely limited to internet memes and Youtube videos, which is a fairly weak foundation for basing an article. The boxing match was played in a school gym, and a further reasonable argument for deletion has been presented that the claims of being a professional boxer due to fighting and losing a single match, are little more than claims. Since the latter view has a rather large majority behind it, and present quite strong arguments, I belive that there is a rough consensus for deletion in this case. Sjakkalle (Check!) 11:35, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Charlie Zelenoff

Reason Lordvolton (talk) 23:46, 25 May 2009 (UTC) I stumbled upon a link to the Charlie Zelenoff article on the Kimbo Slice page. A quick perusal of the discussion page and I saw that another user had already highlighted the issues. I've removed the link from the Kimbo Slice article. This appears to be a hoax page.[reply]

Even if he did lose a fight to someone 1-13 (1 win 13 losses) it's not relevant.

Lordvolton (talk) 23:46, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:03, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, what made you think it was a hoax?--Vintagekits (talk) 00:15, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Additional Comment, if you had read WP:ATHLETE you would have seen that People who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport pass the notability criteria. As Zelenoff has had a pro fight (and another) on the way then he passes that criteria. He is notable not for his achievement but almost for his lack of it. A quick Google search would have satisfied that.--Vintagekits (talk) 00:38, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, Zelenoff is a bit of an internet meme in boxing circles. Just Google him. I vote keep. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.142.128 (talk) 12:18, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This AfD nomination was incomplete (missing step 3). It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 12:27, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

~~Weak delete~~Delete - WP:ATHLETE doesn't work for most combat sports (boxing/MMA) because the status of being a "professional" in those sports is not equal to being a professional in say the NFL. While there's lots of talk about Zelenoff on forums etc, I didn't see much of significant coverage in reliable sources (WP:GNG), but as I'm sure some exists I'll go ~~weak delete~~. --aktsu ^(t / c) 08:23, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I'll go "delete" and rather change it depending on if some significant coverage turns up. --aktsu ^(t / c) 08:36, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually boxing and MMA are completely different in terms of their set up and structure - The vast majority of boxers fight as amateurs and less than 10% ever make it professional.--Vintagekits (talk) 08:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Did Zelenoff have any amateur fight though? I get the impression that, while not smart if you want to have a legitimate career, it certainly possible to go straight to pro meaning we have quite the shortcut to be eligible for an article (maybe I should go get beat up to get my own article as well?). --aktsu ^(t / c) 09:10, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll look forward to your debut and I'll be sure to get the PPV! ;) --Vintagekits (talk) 09:37, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, simply having one professional fight passes WP:ATHLETE much like playing one game for a soccer team. However, Zelenoff is now coming up for is second fight.--Vintagekits (talk) 08:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ATHLETE: "[...] conversely, meeting one or more does not guarantee that a subject should be included". Is there any "significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject" to show notability beside that (IMO faulty) criteria? --aktsu ^(t / c) 09:10, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

BoxRec is a pretty reliable source and he shows up on a number of their pages.--Vintagekits (talk) 09:34, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, but that's about it. No mentions in news articles, no articles about him (that I could find; the one in the article does not come off as a reliable source), nothing. I don't think being listed at BoxRec equals the significant coverage in multiple sources WP:BIO calls for (which is what we should be looking for). --aktsu ^(t / c) 13:58, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Although we dont count forum "chatter" here - a quicl Google search will tell you that this guy aint just your usual novice. He has a profile on BoxRec as well as Make-A-Fight and there is a full report on him FightFax (if you want to spend the 20 bucks on it) as well as the athletic commision suspension report. There is also article with regards his debut on Boxing Confidential and there was a report of his debut fight that was on Deep South Boxing which is reproduced on his Boxrec profile. Without crystal balling this, I am sure there will be more articles over the next month with his next fight coming up.--Vintagekits (talk) 14:11, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. One sanctioned fight held in a middle-school gym + pissing off people by smacktalking online does not equal notable in my book. Not that my opinion by itself really matter, but the boxing-media seems to agree by not covering him at all. --aktsu ^(t / c) 14:22, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I guess so. However, it reminds me of the discussions with regards the Kimbo Slice article that used to rage prior to his fight with Mercer. Obviously Zelenoff is a comedy act imo but its not necessarily the quality of the athelete that makes them notable sometimes its the lack of quality - e.g. Eddie the Eagle and Eric the Eel.--Vintagekits (talk) 14:29, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Current pro fighter, even if a dreadful one and internet meme. There is quite a bit of chatter about about him in boxing circles and Youtube. His method of self promotion might well become the norm for more boxers in the future too so reference back to him is likely to be made for years. --LiamE (talk) 09:08, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete He's not a professional fighter. He fought at an Arkansas middle school. Are the spoofers making comments on this article? It needs to be deleted. The whole point of this article is to make a mockery of Wikipedia and link to notable fighters.

Here is a link to the fight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlxtDLPKnDA

The comments beneath it are interesting, "Just to let you guys know, you have been scammed for the last year. charlie zelenoff was a student at UCLA doing comedy for a class he was taking. i would say he was pretty successful after the first 3 months with the height of his popularity. now he does it to make a name for himself and to make money on the side. his goal is satire and to become an internet legend. charlie planned to quit before the fight started. his real name aint even charlie zelenoff. folks he is acting."

I guess we're not cooperating? I highly doubt this fight was sanctioned, but even it were he's not notable for anything other than trying and failing at being an internet legend. We're left deleting his spoof articles about himself and links on the Kimbo Slice page. We probably need to figure out which account he's using. Lordvolton (talk) 00:38, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, without getting into the merits or demerits of the points made above I would just like to point out that this delete !vote is made by the nominator of the AfD, just so as to avoid any double counting.--Vintagekits (talk) 08:46, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete A single fight does not qualify as competing "at the fully professional level of a sport" as per WP:Athlete, in my opinion. Will he be notable in the future? Maybe, but that's WP:Speculation. --TreyGeek (talk) 00:39, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, actually its does qualify as competing "at the fully professional level of a sport" as per WP:Athlete. Zelenoff holds a porfessional licence which was issued by the Athletic Commision in the State of Arkansas. Not that he needs it but he is also scheduled to have his second fight, this is not WP:Speculation and this fight has been registered with the state commision and is listed on BoxRec.--Vintagekits (talk) 08:46, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, there is a precident set out for similar individuals involved in sporting activity that this type of individual passes WP:ATHLETE. See the recent AfD for Christopher Roberto Ortega. Here is an inidividual who has played just a portion of a single play of soccer and this was deemed to have passed WP:ATHELTE. I would suggest that unless there is a breakdown for every sport with regards what is and what isnt or what does and what doesnt pass the line then WP:ATHELTE stands. Does a guy that has just driven 1 F1 race pass? does a pro golfer that is on the European tour but has never won a tournament pass? etc etc. Zelenoff is an idiot in my eyes and a pretty embarrassing one as well but that is part of his notability. He has qualified for a pro licence and has competed as a pro - that in my eyes crosses the line.--Vintagekits (talk) 08:56, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment He is only "notable" among the editors of Wikipedia who must put up with his antics. In his attempt to become an "internet sensation" he's wasted a lot of our time. He needs to stop wasting our time and invest those energies in becoming notable. A spoof fight that didn't even last a single round isn't going to be enough. Every Tom, Dick, and Harry who creates a Youtube page with something marginally amusing is as notable as the alias Charlie Zelenoff. Thankfully most of them don't resort to blatant self promotion on Wikipedia to achieve their goals. Lordvolton (talk) 23:44, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, now you are just ranting, which doesnt suprise me to be honest as in my opinion you havent come up with anything logical yet. To my knowledge Zelenoff has never edited wikipedia so I dont understand your comment saying "He is only "notable" among the editors of Wikipedia who must put up with his antics". Also please explain what you mean by a "spoof fight" - are you saying it didnt happen? are you saying the state athletic commision didnt sanction it? are you saying Slug Out didnt promote it? are you saying the official record of the fight on BoxRec and Fight Fax is a fake? I am no fan of Zelenoff but I am intrigued by the guy and his story, but that doesnt mean he is a fake, he is very much for real.--Vintagekits (talk) 08:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per TreyGeek. Willking1979 (talk) 08:47, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Keep Being a delusional / troll meme for a long period of time. He has gained quite a status challenging Deontay Wilder and others. – Wayfarer (talk) 11:38, 15 February 2024 (UTC) --[reply]