Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alan Milliner (2nd nomination)

This discussion was subject to a deletion review on 2020 September 15.
For an explanation of the process, see Wikipedia:Deletion review.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Fenix down (talk) 19:15, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Alan Milliner

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Same chap who was subject of an article deleted in 2017, and there's no new claim of notability other than he has now retired. As a football referee, he's not covered by NFOOTIE, so would need to pass GNG; the only source I can find giving him significant depth of coverage is the Football Queensland website, announcing his retirement - this is an affiliated source, since he appears to have worked for them, and so doesn't add any weight to a claim of notability per GNG. GirthSummit _(blether) 17:41, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. GirthSummit _(blether) 17:41, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. GirthSummit _(blether) 17:41, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Leave and here is why. I am aware that this article was deleted because he "failed" to be notable other than his retirement. However, there is a chance because the Hyundai A-League coverage is an official website that he had his only appearance in a 2018 FIFA World Cup qualification match between Timor-Leste and Saudi Arabia. If anyone declares that he fails notability, I will add more sources to this article every way I can, as far as I am concerned, to ensure that he has a year of birth, and a football refereeing career for that matter. Ivan Milenin (talk) 18:14, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ivan Milenin, if you can show me three sources which are all independent, reliable and secondary, and which give him significant coverage, I will gladly withdraw the nomination. Currently the article has no references that tick all those boxes, but if they're out there, by all means add them. GirthSummit _(blether) 18:27, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

- Check out the edit history, and see if some of them are reliable. Ivan Milenin (talk) 18:49, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  Ivan Milenin, unfortunately, none of the ones that give significant coverage are independent of the subject - again, he's worked for the Hyundai league, it's not independent. You need sources that are reliable, independent and secondary, and which give significant coverage. I'm not seeing any that tick all the boxes, sorry. GirthSummit _(blether) 20:29, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How about from the Sydney Morning Herald (https://amp.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/john-aloisi-says-yellow-card-confusion-has-shades-of-graham-polls-world-cup-blunder-20161119-gst74n.html) and others? Do they work? Ivan Milenin (talk) 21:42, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ivan Milenin, The SMH doesn't give him substantial coverage - it's just about a single controversial refereeing decision, there's no biographical content whatsoever. We don't host articles about every referee whose decisions have been mentioned in a match report. GirthSummit _(blether) 09:35, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Spiderone 22:29, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

*Keep per reasoning above. Ymblanter (talk) 11:01, 1 September 2020 (UTC) sock, not Ymblanter GirthSummit _(blether) 15:00, 1 September 2020 (UTC) [reply]

Ymblanter, hi - could I ask whether you'd be willing to expand on that? The reasoning above seems to be either that (a) he is given substantial coverage by an affiliated website (Hyundai A-League, who he worked for), that (b) he officiated in a qualification match for the 2018 World Cup (perhaps there's an SNG for match officials I'm not aware of?), or (c) that passing mentions in match reports are an acceptable substitute for substantial coverage. I can't see a route to notability through any of that, but I'd genuinely be happy to reconsider if there's something I haven't thought of. Cheers GirthSummit _(blether) 11:57, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Girth Summit I have not left this comment: [1]. There is a massive sock attack going already for three days, it involves AfD, and not all sock edits have been cleaned up.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:54, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ymblanter, much appreciated - I'll look through the article history and figure it out. Best GirthSummit _(blether) 14:58, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - per comments at last AFD. Giant Snowman 10:36, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Girth Summit, if you need clarification on notability guidelines on referees, then there it is: [2] In accordance to what they believe in notability guidelines on referees, “players, coaches (managers) and referees who have represented their country in any officially sanctioned senior international competition (including the Olympics) are notable as they have achieved the status of participating at the highest level of football. The notability of these is accepted as they would have received significant coverage as outlined above in the general notability criteria.” In this case, as I keep on researching and adding for additional sources, such as from FIFA, AFC, and sometimes ESPN, they should prove that he had made a senior international appearance at the FIFA World Cup and the AFC Asian Cup, whether if it’s a regular competition, or a qualifying match, or otherwise. If that is the case, then I will see what I will have to do for the matter. Please kindly take a look at the AFC PDF source and other sources if you still doubt it. Ivan Milenin (talk) 16:18, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ivan Milenin, the discussion you link to is many years old - it's possible that the guidance has changed over time as consensus changes over what we consider notable, but I'm not seeing any verbiage about referees in the current version of WP:NFOOTIE about refs - unless I'm missing something, they would have to pass regular WP:GNG. I'll be happy to take a look at the article in its latest state in the days before this discussion is closed, but please don't WP:REFBOMB it - it's the quality of the sources that counts. Two or three really good, independent sources with in-depth coverage would change my opinion; 50 trivial articles about a controversial decision in a particular match will not. GirthSummit _(blether) 16:37, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again Ivan Milenin, I've looked again at the article with its new sourcing. There are a bunch of articles which give him one or two passing mentions, but they're mostly all about the same controversial decision in a single match, and none of them have any biographical detail about him, or discuss him (as opposed to the specific decision) in any depth. There's one which is basically just an announcement that he got his FIFA badge (alongside a couple of other refs), so basically the only sources which go into any depth are sites that he's affiliated with. I'm sorry, but my view remains that he's simply not notable according to our guidelines. GirthSummit _(blether) 14:30, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or Merge I feel that refs should be held to the same notability requirements as players. If the SNG include players who represent a professional team then refs who control those games should be given the same courtesy. However I also don't like the SNGs in general and think they run roughshod over GNG in many cases. So on the whole I will stay neutral on whether this is kept or deleted due to notability. However, and this applies to many other referee articles, coverage of even some of the more well known referees consists of just newspaper articles complaining about controversial calls. It can be a nightmare trying to enforce BLP after a game where fans are divided or even in this case where there is a good faith attempt to source the article. In the end it just makes the article very WP:Undue. So for that reason it tips me to the delete side. As a third option I feel a List of A-league referees might be a better chance to mention Milliner and other borderline referees. AIRcorn (talk) 21:38, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - I'm really struggling to see evidence of WP:GNG here Spiderone 17:56, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, no evidence of meeting WP:GNG, hasn't been the subject of significant coverage in third-party reliable sources. Hack (talk) 03:46, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.