Talk:Eastern Orthodox Church

Semi-protected edit request on 5 March 2021

Spelling error in region (right side of page) section: word lagre should be large. 71.114.79.153 (talk) 01:16, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

 Done. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 01:20, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

2018 schism not addressed at all in article

The 2018 schism (see 2018_Moscow–Constantinople schism) is practically not addressed at all, despite the deep seated ramifications. This needs to be addressed. AprilHare (talk) 19:28, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Orthodox Bible

Should we work on creating an Orthodox Bible page? One in a similar vain of Catholic Bible and Protestant Bible. Doremon764 (talk) 11:06, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

See my answer here. Veverve (talk) 11:20, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Founder

I added Eastern Orthodox Church was founded by Jesus Christ- as per Eastern Orthodox tradition in the info box to maintain neutrality because saying that eastern orthodox Church was founded by Jesus Christ will be biased as Catholics also believe the same for their church. Subhobrata Chakravorti (talk) 17:54, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 12 August 2021

Eastern Orthodox Church → Eastern Orthodox Christianity – There is no one church in Eastern Orthodox world, but instead there are various autocephalous and autonomous churches. Yes, most of them are in full communion with one another, but there are also many Eastern Orthodox Churches not in communion with other churches, for example Traditionalist groups like Old Believers and True Orthodox churches and many others. Also a schism between the Russian Orthodox Church and the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople began in 2018. If someone is against the title "Eastern Orthodox Christianity" then we can consider "Eastern Orthodoxy" as the new title. Delasse (talk) 12:54, 12 August 2021 (UTC) Delasse (talk) 12:54, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose. I have to disagree with you.

For years, this way of thinking was adopted on the French Wikipedia, were a decision such as yours was implemented for a decade and then abolished recently, and it only lead to more confusion: changing the title to try to include marginal or excommunicated groups never helps WP being organised, on top of being seldom supported by sources. By the same token, why not rename Catholic Church to "Catholicism", since there is already Old Catholics, the SSPX, Sedevacantists, the Palmarian Catholic Church and other groups not in communion with Pope Francis?

Break of communions happen sometimes among EOs, from what I understand, so the current schism does not seem to be very important. Moreover, if you personally feel this 2018 schism means one is compelled to redefine what is Eastern Orthodoxy, that does not mean other people and RSs do.

Even if you were to rename the article, what are you going to call the group composed of those churches if those churches are not the standard for Eastern Orthodox Christianity, but only a part of it?

I do not care for who or what is following the "right and True Orthodoxy of the Church Fathers" or whatnot. I only care about what reliable sources state, and you did not provide any despite it being a move request for a level-3 vital article. The 17 autocephalous churches currently have the influence to define what is or is not mainstream Eastern Orthodoxy, not the marginal groups; I understand that it is circular (they have the influence, thus define themselves as the only legitimate churches, thus gain more influence), but WP is not here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Veverve (talk) 16:20, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose.

Regarding the 2018 Moscow–Constantinople schism, note that nearly all E.O. autocephalous churches remain in communion with both Constantinople and Moscow. As Bishop Kallistos Ware notes in "The Orthodox Church", "Each Patriarchate or autocephalous Church, while independent, is in full agreement with the rest on all matters of doctrine, and between them all there is in principle full sacramental communion." Here note "in principle"; when written, the outlier was ROCOR, which (through most of her existence) remained in communion with all other churches except Moscow.

As for Old Believers, they are a mixture of clearly schismatic groups, mostly lacking Apostolic Succession with many entirely rejecting the priesthood, contending that no orthodox bishops remained after the reforms of Nikon and, so, the priesthood ceased to exist with the death of the last Old Believer presbyter.Vincent J. Lipsio (talk) 18:50, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose per above. Johnbod (talk) 21:42, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Opposee, as according to all the autocephalous and autonomous churches (canonical, and canonically disputed) all acknowledge there is one Eastern Orthodox Church, or Orthodox Catholic Church. From the appearance of this, it would be better to create a separate article titled, Independent Orthodoxy, as there is one for Independent Catholicism. The schism as well, is not as major as there is no permanent effect. Besides this, there are various churches in apparent temporal schism over ecclesiastical territory. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 01:02, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

@Veverve @Lipsio @Johnbod @TheLionHasSeen Let us compare with a similar branch of Christianity - Lutheranism. Yes, in German wikipedia exist two articles: de:Luthertum and de:Evangelisch-lutherische Kirchen. But here in English wikipedia there is only one article Lutheranism and it is named as Lutheranism and not as Lutheran Church (which is a redirect with possibilities from a title that potentially could be expanded into a new article). In case of the Catholic Church it is actually one church and not a collection of autocephalous and autonomous churches as in cases of Eastern Orthodox Christianity or Oriental Orthodox Christianity (the latter article also should be moved to Oriental Orthodoxy or Oriental Orthodox Christianity) as there is no great difference with the Eastern Orthodox case. Delasse (talk) 14:14, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Those things are to be decided on a case-by-case basis. You claim that because numerous churches are autocephalous, then one cannot speak on one Church. However, it is not up to you to decide those kind of conventions. Again, you did not provide any RS to explain why your proposal is more widely used or why the use of "Eastern Orthodox Church" would be strongly disadvised. Veverve (talk) 14:24, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

@Veverve When I do search in google scholar for Eastern Orthodox Christianity I got about 500K results. And for Eastern Orthodox Churches - about 400K. Comparable results, thus we can choose both titles. And I explained why I prefer Eastern Orthodox Christianity Delasse (talk) 14:34, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

The exact expression "Eastern Orthodox Church" has 12 600 results. "Eastern Orthodox Churches" has 6.030 results. The exact expression "Eastern Orthodox Christianity" has 3 840 results. Veverve (talk) 15:12, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Let me rebut you simply with this following statement: Lutheranism is a single movement, however the Evangelical-Lutheran Church article is separate as Lutheranism is a traditional movement or branch. As for the Catholic Church, it is one, but also in its oneness a communion of those autocephalous and autonomous churches as in the cases of the Eastern Orthodox Church. How? The Latin and Eastern Catholic Churches have independence, while eparchies within those eastern churches in the [Roman] Catholic Church are autonomous. The article Oriental Orthodox Churches refers to the group, as the discussion was previously held stating they are united as the Oriental Orthodox Churches. These attempts, in my humble opinion, are...politely writing...lacking at best. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 15:06, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

And for good measure, let me add, "Eastern Orthodox Churches" from Google Scholar appears to mainly result from titling of documents referring to the Roman and Eastern Orthodox churches, as in, both of the institutions, not the attempt you are going with in this discussion. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 15:11, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

• Probably you are right. Thank you everyone for an explanation. This requested move can be closed as not moved. Instead I think that we need to create new articles Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Catholicism which would focus on religions (like French fr:Catholicisme and fr:Christianisme orthodoxe) and not on denominations. --Delasse (talk) 13:36, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per what everybody else has said. Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:03, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose per what every else has said too, but also not meant to confused with the other few (ancient to modern day) Eastern Christian denominations who just happens that they officially calling themselves by using the Orthodox word, depending what language formatting you using. Chad The Goatman (talk) 15:46, 19 August 2021 (UTC)